Creativity Isn’t Magic… It’s a Method

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Susan 

Well, hello Amy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Amy 

Thank you, it’s so good to be here.

Susan 

Wonderful. I am excited for our conversation. I’ve been following you for a while and I just I’m so excited for what you’re going to bring to our audience today. So to kick things off, how about you just share a little bit about yourself and what led you to focus so much of your work on creativity and innovation?

Amy 

Yeah. So I have a consulting practice that I’ve had since 2009. And the main focus of the work I do is I teach teams and organizations how to be more creative, how to be more innovative. And what I found in my consulting work, as well as in research that I did that led to my PhD, is that most teams, most people don’t really know how creativity works, and they don’t understand there’s a process. And so that’s a big part of what I do. A lot of trainings, keynote speaking, little bit of coaching. So, and I got into this in some ways I’ve been curious about creativity since I was a kid. Like I was that student in high school that if my friends said they weren’t creative, I was like, what? Yes, you are. Of course you’re creative. You know, and I would jump all over them and try to be encouraging. And of course I had no idea what I was saying, but the positive intent was there. And then, in the 90s, after I graduated college, I stumbled upon the book, The Artist’s Way, which I know has influenced many millions of people. But that book helped me see, creativity is something we can cultivate and nurture. And it’s not just, we need to be deliberate about it. And then I got really deep into it, eventually went back to school to get a PhD so that I could study creativity in teams, because I was very curious, I have a lot of background in team development, and so I was interested in bringing these two things together. And anyway, that’s the short-ish version.

Susan

I love that. Julia Cameron and her work with the artist’s way, right? It’s just, it proliferates so much of what we do. But you’re right, this idea of deliberate creativity. So you use that phrase a lot in your work. Can you tell that? What does that mean exactly? What does deliberate creativity mean and how’s that different maybe from creativity in the moment?

Amy 

Yeah, I use the word deliberate creativity because I think there’s a lot of myths about creativity and how it works. And we think that, I’m just gonna randomly get this great idea and then poof, I’m gonna be able to change the world, or change my classroom, or change my school, whatever it is. And the reality is, being creative takes work. It’s just like anything else, right? And so, I use the word deliberate creativity. Not to say that it’s different than being creative every day. In fact, I’m hoping people are being deliberate about being creative every day, but it’s just like being conscientious about it and intentional about it and taking certain actions and doing maybe some exercises, whatever it might be. Yeah, that’s what I mean by deliberate creativity.

Susan 

I love this idea that it takes work, that it’s not a spark of genius. I mean, it can be, but I guess, like I was speaking to Edward Clap last week and he was talking about this idea that creativity never happens in isolation. It is always participatory. It is always a collaborative effort, right? And I think that weaves in so nicely to this idea that creativity is work. You have to show up. You have to show up and sit down and do the work. And I think any artist will tell you that. I’m curious with your work in Teams and being able to work with creativity in Teams, first of all, what led specifically to that kind of niche in working with Teams? What does that look like for you and how do Teams benefit from creative practice?

Amy

I think, so what led this to me was actually I was working at a university early in my career and I had this experience that I’m guessing most listeners have had where some teams that I was on, I was on a lot of committees because that’s what you do at a university, right? So I was, some committees or teams that I were on, I found were quite creative and were willing to like dig in and explore new things. And others, I felt…less creative just showing up at the table. Like I just, was stagnant. was, yeah, we’re not really interested in serious change here. And one day I had this experience where I was in a team meeting and this was the, like the main work team that I worked with. And we actually were like a pretty decent team. There was about 12 of us, like most teams we’ve met every week or so. And one particular meeting, another teammate, Maria.

She said in the middle of meeting, hey y’all, I’ve got this issue. I’m wondering if, can I get some feedback from you? I’d love to brainstorm for a few minutes. And so, you I heard the word brainstorm and I just stood up a bit taller. I’m like, yeah, this sounds fun. I’m in. And so she explains the situation and we start, you know, sharing ideas. And it was about the fourth idea. Phil says, no, we can’t do that. We did that in 1985 and it was a complete disaster.

And Susan, my reaction was just like yours. I just started laughing because I was like 1985, like what would, because the tapes were cutting edge. And I just started laughing and then Phil looks at me, just glares and I was like, oh, I thought he was joking. And no, he was completely serious. obviously he’d been a longer tenured member than I had been. And I was a kid in 1985. You know what happened next. Nothing. Like, no one was going to share any more ideas. Maria was like, anyone else have anything? you know, tension was high. So, we finished the meeting. Maria does not get the ideas that she’s looking for. And I just left. I was livid. And my boss was in the meeting as well, and we were both just like, like complaining about this. Well, then, about eight months later,

I had another experience with Phil that really changed my perspective, because I was thinking like, my gosh, he’s such a jerk. I can’t believe he did that. Doesn’t he understand how creativity and brainstorming work? Well, Phil invites us over to his house for an end of the year barbecue in his backyard. And I meet his son who’s 10 years old and I meet his wife. And as I’m talking to them, I find out Phil and his son are learning to play the guitar together.

Phil’s been in some community theater productions. Like, okay, this is a person that values creativity and is being creative in their life. What’s happening when they walk through the doors of that building? And I realized this was happening to a lot of us. As we showed up to work, and I’m imagining some teachers feel this way, you show up to work and it’s not a place that nurtures creativity. So…

I got really into wanting to figure this out. I read every book I could find on creativity in teams, which especially then, this is early 2000s, there were not very many. Yeah, a few, and there’s still not a ton. But then I went to get my PhD and really dug into why are some teams creative and some aren’t, and then what are the differences. And I ended up writing my own book on it because… it’s like, there’s not many books out there. I want to share this.

Susan 

Yeah, yeah. So let’s dig into that a little bit more because I think this is fascinating because I think that you’ve uncovered a story that many educators will also resonate with, that it’s not just happening at university settings, but it is the culture of your building. We’ve talked a lot on this show about culture, but kind of at a surface level. what are some things, what did you discover in your research that lead to settings where creativity is valued and embraced and it gets messy and that’s okay and settings where that just gets squashed and shut down.

Amy 

So one of the things that I figured out is that the most important setting, if you will, for where creativity can be fostered or not is at the team level. So what’s happening in those team meetings, what’s happening in the conversation, the email threads between team members. And what I found is there’s three elements that are critical for teams to be creative together. And I put them in a model, those of you looking visually can see this Venn diagram here, but it’s just a simple three circle Venn diagram. The three elements teams need if they want to be creative together are team purpose, team dynamics, and team creative process. So just to dig in a little deeper on each of them, and then you can ask some follow up questions if you want, but team purpose meaning, you know, why are we here together? What are we doing? Maybe the mission statement of the team, but I wouldn’t even go that far.

I mean, it doesn’t need to be perfectly crafted. It’s just what’s the purpose of our team. And also what’s not the purpose of our team. It’s helpful to know like, okay, this over here is not part of our team focus. let’s, if something comes up that might be out of our scope. So let’s pass that on to someone else. So team purpose, team dynamics. So what are those relationships, the interactions between team members, specifically trust, communication and conflict, a particular type of conflict called creative abrasion, where we can disagree around the work and around what we’re doing, but we’re not disagreeing due to personality or identity. That kind of conflict is not helpful really ever. So team dynamics. And then the third circle is team creative process. So what’s the process the team is going through in order to be creative together? And most teams

don’t even know there’s a creative process. And if they do, they’ve never talked about it. And when I look back on that meeting I had with Phil and Maria and my other teammates, we were doing a brainstorming session. We had never talked about the rules of brainstorming. We had never talked about what brainstorming is or isn’t. And there was just this unspoken understanding that clearly what everyone didn’t get, that you don’t criticize the ideas now, we’ll criticize them later, but… that because we had never talked about it, you know, filled, you know, exploded. And I realized later he actually met well. He was really worried we were gonna implement this idea that he thought for sure would fail and it’d be a waste of time. And so even though, you know, he looked like a complete jerk, I do believe his intentions were good. And I think that happens all the time. And so if teams can focus on those three elements of deliberate creative teams, they’re going to be more creative and produce more innovative results.

Susan 

And so you talked a little bit about this unspoken under the surface, like this is kind of the norm or the rule that we don’t do this or we do these things. What are some ways that we can bring some of those things to the surface? And what are specifically maybe some pillars around creativity that we bring to the surface to ensure that we’re not shutting down ideas, but that we are embracing them around the world.

Amy 

Yeah, yeah, this is great. I mean, I think, and I, this is gonna sound like a plug and I don’t necessarily mean it, but I do think it can be helpful for teams to read this book. So my book’s called Deliberate Creative Teams, How to Lead for Innovative Results. And I think what’s helpful about a team reading this is now everybody in the team will get the same language and the same understanding. And then, you know, having a conversation about it. In fact, I’ve even put together a book club guide that may help teams.

Susan

Yes. Plug away. Yes. Plug. Plug.

Amy 

But I think what’s important is if all the team members can understand this deliberate creative system, these three elements that teams need to be creative together, and you talk about it and say, hey, do we even know what our team purpose is? Let’s spend 15 minutes and clarify that. I mean, that’s it. 15 minutes could be enough time. dynamics are the most complex because humans are complex and we all have these different personalities that kind of butt up against each other. And so I often say the way to get to good team dynamics is the process the team is using to work together. So for instance, one of the concerns I get from many of my clients and my guess is many of the listeners have this as well is, you know, in our team meetings, some people don’t speak up very much.

And so I asked them, like, tell me about your team meetings. What’s the structure of them? And most team meetings are set up where there’s a topic and somebody throws that out. Maybe it’s been emailed in advance. Maybe it’s on the agenda. And then people just start verbally sharing their perspectives on the topic. And what happens, this is, think just, don’t know if I want to say natural human behavior, but it’s certainly very prevalent in our U.S. American culture, is that some people are just more talkative, ideas come quicker, they have opinions, and they share those, not necessarily meaning to, but because they’re talking, other people may not be. And so, I often say, okay, what if you change the structure? What if, at the beginning of every team meeting, you have some sort of go-around where everybody shares something related to the topic. I am not talking about, know, we’re having a budget meeting and let’s kick it off with what was your favorite vacation. That just makes adults mad, especially, I know teachers and administrators are stressed. There’s a lot going on. But what if the go-around was something of, you know, what’s the biggest concern you have about our budget coming up? Or what’s something as you reviewed the budget you’re really excited about, or you’re just getting people talking about that topic, but you’re getting every single person to share. And just 15 seconds a person, not in depth, right? And then when you’re actually having the conversation, there may be other ways to do that besides just the share out, where everybody writes a thought down in a post-it note or an idea and then dig into those where you’re- You basically are, I hate to use the word forcing, but you’re setting up the structures where everyone’s input is being considered. And I mean, we could go on and on about different techniques to approach this, but basically what you’ve done is you’ve changed the process, and because of that, you’re going to influence the dynamics of the group. Does that make sense?

Susan 

Yes, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. And I also think as I’m listening to you talk that there’s also a aspect of follow through that is super important to these team dynamics, right? Because we’ve all sat in meetings where the meeting itself has been really productive and we think this is great. Now we’ve got this established and then nothing happens. So we might come back to a meeting a month later.

And we might have another great meeting and the meetings might be fun, but there’s nothing that’s happening after or to the other side of this where there might be conflict that shows up. And we say we embrace that, but then what happens next? Did we, was that conflict heard? Is it resolved? Does it just hang out there? Or is it shut down and like you’ve been punished because of the conflict.

So talk to me a little bit about how the resolution period or the follow through works in a creative environment.

Amy

I really think this is often where we can pull from the project management world, especially with the follow-through piece. One of the questions I’ve started asking in the last couple of years, I’ve started asking the teams I work with is, what’s your process to track the tasks you’re doing together? And many of them look at me like I have two heads. What do you mean?

And I’m like, well, do you write down, know, do you have a collective place where you’re like, hey, these are all the things we’re doing together or would need to be done and who’s doing them and when they’re doing them. And they’re like, well, you know, everybody takes their notes during the meeting and that’s not enough. So there needs to be some way that you’re collectively tracking the tasks that need to be done, who’s doing them, when do they do by, and in a way that everybody can access them. So.

This could be a Google spreadsheet or a Google Doc, and you have a shared Google folder for every team, for the team that everyone can access, or Microsoft Teams or whatever. Obviously, it doesn’t matter. And then there’s some sort of expectation, maybe if you’re meeting once a month, a week before the team meeting, you could even have an automatic email set up that just says, hey, just a quick reminder, click over here to see the tasks and make sure you’re on track.

And then each person needs to have their own way, and it could be a collective tool where they’re tracking the tasks. Like in my own business, I use a tool called Asana. It’s a free tool. You’re familiar with it? Okay, great. Yeah. I mean, it’s great. But if it wasn’t for Asana, 90 % of what I need to do, I would forget. That is just normal, especially in our fast-paced society. And obviously, forgetting to do tasks or

Susan 

Yeah. Although we use Asana as well.

Amy 

Not completing them, that can lead to conflict and frustration. So, I think that’s one piece, is having some method of accountability that you can just keep track of what did we do last time. Because it is frustrating. I’ve been on teams where I felt like every team meeting was the same conversation on loop. Yeah. And that’s like, I got better things to do, right? But then think when you’re getting into that conflict, I think setting up some time for that can be really helpful. Let’s say there’s one task and there’s a difference of opinion about how it should be approached or if they should even do it. Setting up, okay, we have this on our agenda. We’re going to spend 15 minutes or 30 minutes or whatever to look at this particular conflict and give folks an opportunity to share some perspectives and ideas. And one of things that I find a lot of times is that there’ll be two members or two perspectives that actually, once you start digging in, are nearly identical. And it’s like one person just wanted this one thing, and the other person’s like, yeah, actually, that’s a great addition! Let’s do that! And so, I think if team members can show up and have that conversation, and it can be helpful, too, to differentiate, are we in dialogue to just share perspectives?

Or are we in that decision-making mode where we’re actually deciding which approach to take? And if you can start out and say, okay, let’s just be in dialogue for a few minutes, we’re not making any decisions, we’d love to get the different perspectives. And then, like, okay, let’s move into a more formal, or not necessarily a bit formal, but just an intentional, we’re discussing to make a decision. And sometimes,

Some people think we’re just having a dialogue and some people are like trying to get their opinion like, have to agree with me. And just separating those out can make a huge difference.

Susan 

Yeah, and what you’re sharing is so much around systems thinking and this idea that creativity does thrive in constraint. And I come back to this a lot in my own work and the idea that, you know, we have this idea that we just throw paint at the wall and that’s creative, right? Or that it’s just getting, it’s always messy. And creativity can be messy in the process, but I often find that it thrives, it grows when you have these structures in place and it goes back to your point of creativity requires work and work requires systems and established, you know, constraints around it. So let’s talk a little bit about mindset. How, like what are some shifts in thinking that are key to building a more creative culture in either a classroom, a school, or in a team of any kind?

Amy 

I think actually what you just said, Susan, is one of the key things in understanding that it’s a process and it might be messy and that’s okay. And I think sometimes, I don’t know if this has always been the case, but certainly in my adult life where things move at a fast pace, we are used to watching 30 second videos and watching 10 of them in 20 minutes or whatever. And we just…

We’re inundated with things. We think that everything needs to be fast paced. And actually, I really love the phrase, go slow to go fast. And if you just can slow down and know, hey, we’re making a big change here. It might take a year or three years or five years. What are the steps we need to take to get there? And sometimes those meetings might be a conversation about let’s just talk about a process and how we’re going to approach this work. And on one hand, that can feel like a waste of time because we’re not getting anything done. But by doing that, you actually speed up the work later on in the year. And go ahead.

Susan 

I was gonna say that makes complete sense in that and also we have this Checklist mentality, right? It feels good. It’s satisfying to Start a meeting end a meeting know what you’re doing get out out you go, but creativity doesn’t live on a checklist And sometimes that’s you need that mindset of being able to live in the mess a little bit I am I saw on your website that you have these awesome kind of brainstorming cards

Tell me a little bit more about these cards and how they facilitate this kind of mindset because I think it’s fascinating.

Amy 

Yeah, I love this. Thank you. Yeah, so these cards are called climber cards. My last name is climber. I didn’t name them. I had some friends like, have to call them climber cards. Okay. Initially, actually, the group that I made them for, this is back in 2012, was a lot of people who are working on ropes courses or team building facilitators, that kind of thing. Anyway, so what they look like is on one side, are all of these little images that I, these are all watercolor paintings that I drew. So we’ve got like a globe, a mirror, an earthworm, an eyeball, octopus, just all of these like very simple, iconic images. And so the way they work is actually, if we go back to that example of, the beginning of a budget meeting, you could spread these cards out on the table so everyone can see them. There’s about 52 of them.

And then you ask the question, pick a card that represents something you’re nervous about regarding this budget conversation. And now everybody picks a card and then they share their perspective. And this, depending on the size of the group, might, everybody might go around and share, you know, why pick the octopus? Because I’m concerned that we might be all over the place and going in eight different directions. And I’m hoping that we can narrow in and really focus together and then somebody else might choose the eye because, you for whatever. And what happens is because of the images and the way language works and we love metaphors and symbols, we end up, the conversation ends up being deeper and more specific than if you had just asked the question and said, hey, what are your concerns about the budget conversation? And it really shifts the dynamics and shifts the tone.

So that’s one way to use them and probably the most common way Another way is if you are trying to be creative or trying to you know generate ideas Which by the way generating ideas is just one piece of creativity, but it’s the one we you know, obviously it’s important Okay, let’s say you start off with the typical brainstorming where people are shouting out ideas It’s actually not a very effective technique, but it’s one that most people use and inevitably what happens is after each of us have shared two, three, four ideas, we run out. And so then what can be helpful is to bring in a different ideation technique. And so you can use these images, spread them out on the table again, and say, use these images to spark more ideas for our particular challenge. And then I sort of joke about, there’s one of the images is an iron.

And I sort of imagine this conversation of like yoga experts, yogis getting together and say, if we did yoga in this really hot space and we cranked up the heat, even in the middle of the summer? And then boom, hot yoga was born. Okay, that’s not really how it happened, but it’s just funny. Like you can get, the images really spark some wacky ideas, but then those wacky ideas might lead to something really cool.

Susan

Yeah, yeah, I love this. there’s so many ways that you could use this, not only in teams, you could use it in a classroom with students. There’s so many opportunities with that that I think are really meaningful and no idea is a bad idea, right? When you have cards in your, it’s kind of working in play a little bit. So before we go, I like to tie in in terms of like, what’s one small step that for people who are listening who are like this all sounds great but where do I start? What’s a small step that they could begin to make space for more creativity in wherever they are?

Amy 

I think the first is just to think in your head, okay, I wanna be more creative or I want my team to be more creative. just having, even if you only have that dialogue internally, that can be helpful. It could be even more helpful if you say that out loud, whether, and actually there’s all this research that if you tell people to be more creative, they will be more creative. So that can be a cool tool for your students as well, especially cause most school, most of the school days so structured and they’re trying to get the right answer. You’re like, nope, no right answer in this moment. It’s about being creative. And then all of sudden we have this extra freedom. So I think that’s one thing is just to think about internally, but also to say that out loud. And then I think really think just taking a good look at what are you doing that might be encouraging or hindering creativity. I have made the mistake of being the Phil.

I have made the mistake of in a team meeting or just in a one-on-one conversation where someone shares an idea and I shoot it down. In fact, I had this really funny exchange with my dad who is quite creative and always has ideas. And one day he shared this idea and I said, dad, that’s never gonna work. And he looked at me and he said, well, okay, Miss Creativity.

And I okay, touche, touche. Like he was spot on, right? Like I, what was I doing shooting down this idea in the moment? And so I would think that, I say that’s the other thing is really paying attention to yourself and how are you showing up and what are some things, even just tiny changes that you might make to influence that team.

Susan

Yeah, yeah, the ripple effect is real. wonderful. So, before we wrap up, what is the best place for our listeners to learn more about you and all of the ways that they can connect with you?

Amy 

It really is.

You can go to my website which is climber consulting comm and climber is spelled C L I M E R There’s no B in it and you can go to climer cards com if you want to get a deck of climber cards I Offer a free workshop on how to use them almost every month so you can find the email there and then Anywhere books are sold you can get deliberate creative teams how to lead for innovative results and definitely recommend that, in fact,  probably by the time this podcast episode drops, the audiobook will be out as well. It should be out any day now.

Susan

Yay. That’s fantastic. Wonderful. We will put all of that in the show notes. Amy, thank you so much for your insights today and for allowing all of us to learn from you to be a little bit more creative.

Amy

Well, thanks for having me on the show. I love what you’re doing. If teachers can be, and administrators can be more creative, I just feel like schools will be even better.

Climer Consulting

Climer Cards

Deliberate Creative Teams (Dr. Climer’s book)