Beyond the Boundaries

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All right, well, hello, Nina. Thank you so much for joining us today on the show.

Nina 

Thank you so much for having me, Susan. I really, really appreciate it.

Susan 

Well, I’m so excited to learn more about you and your organization. Can we start by having you share a little bit about yourself and about Arts Without Boundaries?

Nina 

Sure, so my name is Nina Kenney McCrae. I am from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I am a creative in all different types of ways. But one of my biggest things is I love working with children, specifically black and brown children in the Philadelphia area that do not have access to arts programming, specifically musical theater where it’s the three disciplines. So a lot of my time has been used helping others cultivate their programs, but then also building out my program in an area of West Philadelphia that doesn’t have arts programming as as a, as an outlet for kids in this area. So I’m a mom, I’m a wife, I’m a singer, writer. I’m kind of a creative in every sense of the word. So that’s a little bit of me in a nutshell.

Susan 

Which is fantastic. And so tell me a little bit more about Arts Without Boundaries and how you got started with that.

Nina 

Okay, so this is a long story, but I’m gonna keep it short. So Arts Without Boundaries was kind of birthed out of a senior project that I had my senior year of college. I went to a performing arts college. So my major was professional music. So it was like, can build, you can do an album, you can do a show, you can do anything. And at the time I was working at the Cambridge YMCA and I had built a music, like a little musical theater class, just to kind of keep the kids busy, you know, not to have them all running all over the place. And I realized that I really loved working with kids in the art space, especially where they don’t have it all the time, because I feel like there’s a, the parents are more engaged. They’re like, what is my child coming home singing? Or why are they excited about Disney movies the way they’ve never been excited about them? So I decided to just do my senior project on building out an arts program.

And after I graduated, I was like, I think I wanna keep doing this. So I just kept on building it and building it. And then when I got married, I moved to New Jersey and I was working as a program coordinator at the YMCA Cambridge. You’ll see a theme in my story, always working through nonprofits, but I realized I really wanted to build a program. So I kept working on the program, but then we decided to move back to Philly where it was originally where I always wanted to come back to. This is my home base. This is where my heart is. This is where I creatively learned how to do pretty much everything that I do. So I was like, I want to come back home. And so me and my husband and my infant son moved back to Philly where I was able to get opportunities with the Kimmel Center and other organizations. And Arts Without Boundaries just started growing and growing. our first program was Black Girls Do Broadway.

We had a program specifically for girls of color who wanted to have access to Broadway training, but maybe couldn’t afford it. It’s expensive. I know my parents know it’s very, very pricey. And so it was really one of those things where I was meeting girls along my teaching journey that was like, this Nina, like, do you have anything? Do you teach lessons? And I couldn’t teach everybody individually, but I was like, I think I can put something together. And so we did that for two years and then COVID happened where all the funding, as you know, arts funding, where we were just getting our momentum and getting funding, everything was kind of stopped. So we decided to do it virtually, which opened it up when we had girls from Atlanta, Michigan coming in. But then I also realized all my girls were graduating. And so I really felt a need to address the need for arts with Black boys. I have a son, and I think that was one of my things. He’s very creative and I couldn’t find an arts program for boys of color where kind of the curriculum was curated for them. And so I was like, okay, I’ll do it. And so after that, we started Arts Without Boundaries Youth Community Theater, which we just ended our second year, our second production. Our first one was The Lion King, which the Kimmel Center really helped us get costumes and they gave us scripts. I mean, they really, really, really helped us because I had that relationship as a teaching artist, which is why I always encourage teaching artists to maintain these really great connections with larger arts organizations, especially if you’re small, because you can bring things into communities maybe the way others can. And then this year, we wanted to do the Wiz, and as you know, the Wiz was on Broadway, so all the licensing was halted, and I was like, I really want to do the Wiz. Our community is so excited. And I was like, I’m just going to rewrite it. So I wound up rewriting the play, and it was called Journey into Oz, me and my husband did 11 original songs and we presented it to the kids and we had 32 kids put on two shows for Journey into Oz. We had about 400 people show up. And so it really, it really impacted the community in a way that I didn’t realize until people were like, we need more. And so for me, Without Boundaries is definitely a story of like community, of creativity, also of making sure that kids have resources.

And that no matter their background, financial standing of their family, every child should have access to quality. I always highlight quality because there’s a lot of arts programs, right? But quality is, you curating the curriculum for the kids that you’re serving? I knew the kids that I was serving. I knew a lot of them had never been to Broadway, had never done a show, but they were creative. A lot of them that get in trouble for being talkative in school or being those? The crazy thing is, was those kids were the ones that shined in arts programming. And so I would ask them, I would say, so what kind of arts do you do in school? And they’re like, we don’t have it. Like we don’t have it. And that was heartbreaking because I’m like, some of these kids, I know me, I shined in the arts. I was extremely shy. I was scared of everybody, literally like eye contact, not happening, talking to you, not happening. So seeing some of these kids who had behavior issues or had issues with self -esteem or confidence or felt they were always overlooked or shining in this program. I knew that Arts Without Boundaries was onto something. So we just kept going. We got partnerships with a local church that had a CDC. We’ve had community members. have our community grandmoms and aunties is what we call them. And they’re just women from the community who for two years have just been coming and taking up space with us, anything that we need, if we need snacks, we need, if the kids need a hug, if the kids need a good talking to, we always have this really beautiful community. And so that’s what Arts Without Boundaries is. It’s really just a space for kids to be exactly who they are, but to have a community around them that supports them and is able to build curriculum that provides a space for them to be confident, to grow into themselves, and to also be able to have community with each other. So I think that’s what, what Arts Without Boundaries is.

Susan 

Such a wonderful story. And I gotta tell you, I feel like kindred spirits because that’s exactly how our organization started. This organization started because I was in the middle of my final master’s degree project. So this was a project for that. And it just kind of evolved from there based around, you know, seeing the needs that weren’t being met and then stepping into that and just kind of taking it and saying, fine, I’ll do it.

And I think that’s so important. I love hearing your passion and the stories that you tell about the kids shining in musical theater and in the arts in general, in places where most people write them off quite honestly. I I saw that a ton when I was working in my school. had teachers tell me that child is never gonna be able to memorize all of those lines. And I’m like, you watch, you watch. They do, yes, yes.

Nina 

And they do memorize it in everybody else’s too. Yeah.

Susan 

They have a reason, they have a purpose, right? And also I love that you’re providing opportunities. I heard that really loud and clear because Malcolm Gladwell says that the thing that separates those who succeed and those who don’t based on the research is really the opportunities that they’ve been provided. If you are not provided with opportunities through no fault of your own, right? Then you’re at a disadvantage from the start.

So I love that you’re providing those opportunities and making this an option for everyone, regardless of their background.

Nina 

Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. That’s our goal. And we were so excited because we’re continually growing. And I think the excitement that people see are the boys that come into our program. That’s the part that gets everyone. Black boys in theater, although it’s not talked about a lot, but I’ve noticed like it’s not the most, especially the community that I serve, it’s not really the most popular thing, I think.

But then when the kids get in the space, which is why it was important to curate Journey and Oz this year, because we incorporated jazz and R &B, rap. We made some of the characters that the boys would be attracted to. Because one of the things I was noticing was like, yeah, we’ll have girls come all day long, but what about the boys who aren’t good in sports or even may want to explore creative, creatively, but they don’t feel like they have a safe place to. And so that was one of the biggest things that we were focusing on. And most of our, had an increase. had four boys last year, we had 10 this year. And then I think we actually increased, had a registration is open now and I think we’re increasing this year as well. So we really want to support our boys and creatively and what they want to do. So that’s one of the big highlights that we’re highlighting right now is really getting our boys invested to keep them out of

Number one, out of trouble. Philadelphia does have some issues as far as just violence. And so one of the big things for me is I also run a grant for the city under anti -violence. So a lot of my stuff is very intersex. So I see the impact that programs make and I would love to see more arts programs. And so I think it just starts with me kind of being that person that’s like, can use this as a tool for our boys as well and our girls. But one of the things I’ve noticed is

The boys need more options other than sports, so.

Susan

Yes. Well, and you’re also doing the smart thing of being able to, and this is a lesson for everybody, when it’s not just us writing something or providing something, it’s meeting them where they are. So knowing your audience. And so for those boys, know, rap, R &B, jazz, those are the things that they’re interested in. Maybe that is the access point or the gateway into musical theater that they would have otherwise dismissed, right? And if you didn’t do that, if you just presented just the musical theater option, certainly I don’t think you’d get nearly the amount of response that you’ve gotten. So I think that’s fantastic. That’s a great lesson for everybody to take with them. I am hearing such passion for Philadelphia coming from you today. So can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing in West Philadelphia and how your early experiences in that city with the arts in particular have influenced you?

Nina

Yeah, so I always say West Philadelphia born and raised because I literally am West Philadelphia born and raised. Literally, I tell people that. Growing up in Philadelphia was really, I have this conversation with people all the time and it might just be the way my brain worked when I was little. My favorite book when I was a girl was Anna Green Gables, which was also very interesting for a little black girl to be carrying around. My dad got me the, you know, like the trilogy when it was all, I don’t know if you know Anna Green Gables, but it was a huge book.

And at like 12, I will be walking around reading. I was such a reader, which I think, which also like complimented just my creativity. But I would read that book and I would think of different ways that I could get like different ways that Anne would sing things. And I mean, again, I was a very different kind of kid. So I was a creative kid and sometimes a little bit of a loner because sometimes you’re kind of when you’re creative, your brain just works differently. And when I was little, that’s just how it was. But there was an organization called Freedom Theater and it was based in Philadelphia. It was one of the first, it was the first, or I believe one of the first black repertory theaters in the country. Leslie Odom went there, Denzel Washington supported it, Erica Alexander. Like there was a lot of people that really benefited from Freedom Theater. And so my mom was like, I think we should put her in there. She’s shy. And that was my entryway. I walked into this beautiful building on Broad Street. It was like, Fame, literally. if you can think of Fame, like the kids all over, that is exactly what it was. And I just fell in love with dance, but then I realized I could sing and not just play sing, but I could really sing. So I was just like, my mom was like, let’s move you to vocal. And I was like, well, I wanna be in dance. Dancers were all the cool girls were. So I was like, I wanna stay with them. But thank goodness for my parents who were like, let’s move you and we want you to use your voice more.

I fell in love with vocal arts and so I started doing that. I started taking classes at Settlement. I started doing little shows around the city and I just fell in love with singing. That was my thing and that’s when my voice started really being heard because I’m like, I’m just gonna sing. I still won’t talk to people, don’t get that wrong, but I would sing to you. So that’s kind of where my journey started and I was able to meet friends who now are also doing amazing things in the city, but we all started as 10, 11 year old kids in this theater, Freedom Theater. And I always want to give them their flowers because they have done so much for black artists that I can’t even name all the people that probably have been through the doors, have been impacted by the teachers, but they just placed a discipline and a standard of excellence. And so you knew when you saw Freedom Theater kids, them kids were some bad kids. I mean, we were 10 year olds harmonizing like it was crazy dancing putting on shows so that was where it started but then I also realized I wanted to get more of that formal education so settlement definitely helped with that. The crazy thing is I applied to go to the performing arts school and didn’t get in and so I was like maybe I’m just not great you know but then four years later I got a scholarship to Berkeley College of Music so I was like maybe that wasn’t my journey but maybe it was also to share because even now I share with kids who don’t get in.

Keep going, there’s other opportunities, which is why Arts Without Boundaries were very intentional, especially with our high schoolers. Like keep going, even if there’s a no, there’s a yes somewhere. So I don’t want you to think that it’s not. So me growing up in Philly, I just always saw it in beautiful colors. And I tell people this, there is a lot, there is things that go wrong, right? But I don’t ever remember the city, how people tell me it was when I was younger.

I just always saw it in beautiful bright colors because that’s just the communities that I was in no matter what space I was in. And so I try to bring that in everything that I do is like, yeah, Philly does have his stuff. You know, don’t remember this when you were 12? No, I remember being outside with my friends trying to figure out a dance move. I remember being at Freedom Theater. I don’t remember these things. And so I think it’s really important that I share with people like growing up in Philly as a creative, I always felt like I had a space.

I always felt like I had friends that understood me. think my first group of friends were my theater friends. Like school was cool, but my theater friends, those were my people. Like those were, and so I think my journey in the arts in Philly was just one that was filled with love, compassion, understanding, a very tough, but great teachers that really let us know you want to do the arts, but as a black girl or black boy, you’re going to have to really work at this.

You’re going to have to make sure that you have a knowledge, range of knowledge. And it’s unfortunate that we have to do that, but it’s a reality. And I’m so grateful that our instructors were very intentional about that. And even some of the stuff I learned as a little girl, I’m applying to our kids now. So growing up in Philly to me was just, to me was a beautiful experience. Yes, it had its moments, but my love for Philly runs so deep and will always run deep because I think it’s just a beautiful space..

Susan

I love it. Yes, and I mean that clearly shines through and I love that about the experience of your experiences based around what your own experience right it’s not necessarily shaped by external forces it’s really your own smaller community that has really done that for you so

Now, you’ve talked a couple of times about other organizations that you’ve worked with, like the Kimmel Center and the Y. I know that you’ve also worked with Boys and Girls Clubs. So can you give some advice for those who are looking to partner with organizations outside of their own? How best to do that? How can we approach them? How can we do a true partnership with perhaps organizations that are much larger than what we’re doing currently?

Nina

So one of the things that I was told was when you go in and you want something from somebody, don’t start with asking for it. Always see how you can contribute to their space first. So one of the things that I always do is I always introduce myself. I always let them know what my skills are and I say, is there anything that I can do in this area that could support your mission? Now, a lot of people are like, woo, that’s tricky, but it’s really not. It could be just having a conversation.

It could be just sharing resources. think a lot of people do not take into account just sharing the resources. I know for me, a lot of my ends was as a teaching artist. I don’t know why my brain functioned that way, but I was like, I’m gonna come in as a teaching artist. Cause if they see what I’m actually doing to support their program, there is no way they’re not gonna in the end be like, know what? Nina’s doing something I wanna support. And I’ll be honest, every single time that I’ve asked for something or I’ve had a request for something, it’s always been an absolute, but it’s always been because I’ve come in serving first and then making sure that they see the work. The arts is interesting. Everyone says they can teach, everyone says they can do certain things, but in reality, it’s so many organizations and you gotta show people first. And I’m not saying do stuff for free because your time is valuable but making sure people know that you’re available as a resource. Even now, if I see something, if I see a grant, if I see a program that’s not mine that I think would be good for organizations that I partner with, I will, without hesitation, send it to them. And it just keeps that relationship. So for me, it’s like building a relationship. I tell people partnerships are marriages. And I know people are like, Nima, that’s intense. I’m like, it’s really not, because I feel like a partnership, a marriage is what? Two people coming together, building something together.

You have to have clear expectations, clear standards. And I think that’s what a partnership is. So I think whenever you’re doing something with any organization, you want to come into it with those things in mind. But before you get to marriage, what do you have to do? You got to date, you got to see how things. So I would say take your time. Everything that I’ve done has been, in Philly has been almost a seven year process. So, and we’re only in our second year of like independent programming. So, I would say don’t get discouraged if it’s not what it looks or sounds like in the beginning, but keep going. It’s going, and I always tell people, it’s gonna be okay. Take a breath, take your time. Everything has its place, everything has its season and its reason. And so that’s one of the biggest devices that I would give to anyone because that was advice that was given to me.

Susan 

I love that and leading with as a certain servant leader. I mean, that’s one of our core values. I know it’s something that it has helped us along the way. And I think that you’re absolutely right when you and I tell I also tell this to people all the time. It’s not coming with a handout. It’s offering. How can I help give you my hand and help you together? Right. So I love that that has also worked for you and clearly.

You’re doing good things with your partners. I mean, they’re totally willing to help and that they’re, you know, a major facet of what you do, which is fantastic. So what are some specific skills and disciplines that you are looking to cultivate in the young people through your program?

Nina

Okay, so the biggest one for me is confidence. That is one of the things that I severely struggled with when I was younger. And I think confidence can lead to so many, and I’m not saying I have a false sense of who you are or anything like that, but I’m like, have confidence in who you are. And I think through our program, even when they come in, we have like a phrase that they say every week.

So I am great because I am amazing. But how are you saying it? Are you coming in saying I’m amazing? And I’m like, no, no, and I’m always the one at the door. So I’m like, if you say it like that, I need you to go outside and whatever, spin in a circle, whatever you need to do with mom and dad, but I want you to come in, even if it’s not, you don’t feel it. I need you to say it like you feel it. And so it’s like making sure they have confidence. Some of the other skills is discipline.

I’ve noticed that a lot of youth, the discipline is, it’s like if something doesn’t work out the first time, it’s like, well, I’m not gonna do it. And I think it’s just maybe the culture. Like you see people being famous off of a video or a reel. And I’m like, no, like this is a discipline. So making sure you’re rehearsing or making sure you’re singing. I tell all the parents, even the parents, and I tell a lot of arts professionals, you’re teaching the kids and you’re training the parents don’t think people try to be like, no, I’m just with the kids. No, no, no, no, no. When you, when that child signs up and you are that child’s Mrs. or Mr., you are training that parent because a lot of our parents had never done musical theater. So they didn’t understand when I say be here at nine o ‘clock, I actually mean 845 because that’s when you need to put your jazz shoes on. That’s when your stuff needs to be, you need to be sitting on the dance floor, ready to warm up at nine o ‘clock. And they’re like, well, you said nine.

I actually meant, I said, no, they need to be early. And then one of our things is if you’re late, nine o ‘clock is late, you automatically get 50 jumping jacks. So you have kids, I mean, it is like a whirlwind and those parents are like, I tried to get them here, but it’s disciplining them because a lot of these kids wanna do the arts professionally. That’s the rule, that’s the standard, right? So we’re teaching discipline, even in school, if you have an assignment and your teacher says it’s done at a certain time, make sure you’re getting it done. Set a schedule for yourself. So one of the things we do is in the beginning, we set schedules. We’re like, your child should be rehearsing 30 minutes a day. Let them do it before homework or after homework, but it has to be at some point during the day. Or if there’s a show, the monologues need to be met. Like we’re trying to train them so these things can transcend through any environment, any community. The last thing I would say that we’re trying to teach them is that resilience, right? One of the things we do is we broke up our programming to modules. So our first module is training. Our second module is the auditions and rehearsal. And auditions is one of those places where we got to teach resilience because we have kids who want things so bad and normally they get it, right? You can get it in the snap of a finger. So when we do auditions and you don’t get something, and you’re completely crushed, how do we build you up again? And so one of the things that we do is when we do cast, the first thing that we do is we send the list out to all the parents and we ask the parents to have a conversation with the kids about the role that they got and that no role is too big or too small. And then we do check -ins the next day we’re together. So if a parent message us is like, Sarah is really struggling, like she wanted this role, she’s sad, she doesn’t wanna come.

We say, bring her in. And we, as teachers, we literally have this moment with Sarah where we’re like, listen, you didn’t get this role, but this is where we see you shine. And we also have like a rubric system, which could be just my program management backside. But I like to have stuff where I can share with parents during the audition, what we saw, what we didn’t see, and how we can support them, but also as parents, how you can support them. So yes, it’s arts, but it’s really helping the parents know their kids better. It’s the kids learning how to learn their skills better and being resilient. And I will say, like, we had some kids who were like, if I don’t get the role of Dorothy, I am out. Well, our character, her name was Dee. And we changed Toto to Otto, which was a boy. But they were like, I’m out of here. And I was like, no. And the parents were like, well, my child doesn’t want to come. No, bring them. Because in life, they’re going to get told no. If you set the standard of no and they can just leave now for just a play, imagine if they get no to college or if they get no for a job.

We are, I’m really being intentional about like making sure our kids have community, but they’re building creatively. They’re able to be resilient humans. Even if they don’t go into theater, they’re able to be able to be resilient and bounce back from things. Cause life can be hard and we don’t shy from that. Our teachers are like, life is hard y ‘all. Life can get really, really tough. And as teenagers, we got a lot of kids moving into teenagers and that’s interesting. That’s a whole.

But even with our kids who are going into high school, who were with us last year, this year, there’s different things that we’re noticing. And we’re just trying to be like, hey, are you all right? You doing okay? And being able to have that community. So those are the three things that I think we are really, really trying to instill within our program and our curriculum.

Susan 

Yeah, when you say community, mean, what a gem because it’s not just the community around the arts component. It’s really life skills, learning all of these skills that are so important. And when people talk about why do we need the arts, this is exactly why. This is exactly why. I love that. So speaking of the arts in general and arts education, from your perspective and what you’ve seen so far, from your own experiences as well as what you’re seeing right now, and AWB, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing arts education and how does your organization try to address them?

Nina

Okay, so I think that one of the big things is funding. I’m gonna be honest with you. It’s funding and it’s also people taking the time to go into spaces that are not conventional spaces. I think that’s the biggest thing. I’ve noticed, you can go outside of Philadelphia and I mean, these theater programs are like stacked, right? And then you come into Philly and it’s like, if you don’t go downtown to Rittenhouse or if… you don’t go certain places, you don’t have access. And so I think funding is one of the biggest things is even for me as a small organization, funding can be really, really tough to come by because sometimes people don’t see the vision for kids doing musical theater in the way that I’m teaching it. Thankfully people are coming around because we’re getting a little bit more traction with what we do. But I think that’s one of the big things. And I also think diversity in teaching artists. And that is something that I advocate. 

We, if you are in a school that is predominantly Black and Brown, we should be really making an effort to have Black and Brown teaching artists. Not to say that it has to be all, but I will say when I’ve been in space as a teaching artist for over 15 years, I am normally the only Black woman, man anything. And so it really is jarring to me that sometimes I have to be the face, the poster child when I know there’s other people who would be great for it, but maybe they don’t know about it or they’re not tapped in. So I think really having outreach for teaching artists of color, especially in Philadelphia, I’m noticing that. And sometimes the resources, right, we can’t afford to just be teaching artists. Like we have to teach or have other jobs. So I think that’s something that I’m really, really, really starting to notice as I’m like, where’s even me trying to find black male teaching artists?

It has been really tough because a lot of them have to work full time, so they want their weekends to kind of decompress. And so I think those are the three things that I’m really noticing. But the last one, the diversity and teaching artists, I think that will bring in so many more kids. That will bring in different ideas and perspectives that I think a lot of you need.

Susan 

Yeah, and I actually wanna expand on that for just a minute because it’s something that as our organization has grown, it’s something that we have been intentional with, but we’ve also struggled to find. To be quite honest, when we run our conferences and our events, we purposefully put out calls specifically to artists of color, teaching artists of color, teachers of color, but it has been a challenge for us to get a response.

I’m curious, what are some things that your organization is doing to try and acknowledging the difficulties that are there? What are some ways that you have found to be successful in encouraging more teaching artists of color?

Nina 

So think one of the big things for me is talking to people. I reach out to different local theaters. reach out to anybody, honestly. I will be like, listen, we need a teacher that can work with this certain demographic. And I’m very honest about what we need. think sometimes we want to just say, you’re a teaching artist. Every teaching artist will not be for what you need. think me is reaching out and just seeing what the networks are.

Also, of the big things, LinkedIn has been a such a great blessing to me, because I’m able to kind of cruise through stuff. And I know people cruise through, I cruise through LinkedIn, like people cruise through Instagram and TikTok. So I’m always looking for different people or ideas. And I think we have to be intentional about sending out these signals to people and then also providing training. I think there are creatives who want to be teaching artists, but it sounds so… far -fetched, like teaching artists, that sounds a you know, little, a little fufu, like I have to do this. And it’s like, no, it’s really not as complex as you make it. So I think having training and accessible training, I always say that, accessible training where people who may not have done it before can get this access to different trainings, to different opportunities, I think it would definitely open up the door for more diverse teaching artists.

Susan 

I love that. I love that. So before we go, let us know your, what is your vision for AWB and how do you envision it like growing?

Nina

So my vision right now is to keep doing what I’m doing, but also to expand throughout the city. So I know we’ve been talking to have different site locations. We also definitely want to get into curriculum. So building out curriculum for these large organizations, building out research and data points that they can use to better serve the kids that they serve. Also, one of the big things is we’re working on licensing journey ties.

Because it is all original, we’re so excited to start working on licensing that and possibly offering that to different schools that may need a new entryway into the theater arts. And so we’re just looking on getting bigger and expanding, impacting more kids, training more teachers, teaching artists. We’re just really looking to make a huge impact in the art space, especially like I said for teachers of color, teaching artists for color, and for children.

Susan 

That is amazing, I love that. So where can people find you and stay in touch?

Nina 

So we are on Instagram at AWB Philly. You can go on there. It’s also on Instagram. Philly AWB. They can also go to our website, artswithoutboundaries.org. Yeah, we’re really, thankfully we have interns for our social media. So they keep us young and useful. And youth college kids, I tell people that go to your college and get creative kids.

They will, you feed them a good snack, give them a good stipend. They will, I mean, they will really show up for you. So I would say really use the colleges around you and you give them that experience and exposure too. So yeah, you can do any of those three things to stay in contact.

Susan 

Fantastic. We will put that all in the show notes as well so that people can easily go ahead and just find you in all of those spaces. thank you so much for joining me today. I have learned so much from you. You’ve just dropped so many gems today. And I’m excited for the journey for you and for all of us ahead with all of the things that you’re doing.

Nina 

Awesome. Thank you so much, Susan, I appreciate your time. And I’m just excited to see what else we can possibly collaborate on or any more conversations. It was such a pleasure talking to you.

Susan Riley

I love that. Absolutely.

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