Moments that Matter: Unlocking Potential in Education

All right, well, welcome, Clint. I’m so glad you could join us today.

Honored to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Of course, of course. So could you please give us a little bit of background about yourself, a little overview and why you’ve been called the undercover millennial?

My name is Clint Pulver. I’m a professional keynote speaker and travel all over the world training educators and speaking to districts and talking to principals and administration on how to create an organization that students and teachers never want to leave. It’s founded upon a six and a half year study that was called the Undercover Millennial Program where I would go undercover into schools and organizations as businesses as someone who was looking for a job.

And we found the hidden truths behind why certain teachers stayed in districts for 20 years and certain teachers only stayed in districts for only two months. And the differences behind how really great leaders and great educators were creating an organization, a culture, where students and teachers didn’t just survive in education, but they could actually thrive.

Amazing, amazing. And in this episode, we’re actually going to be talking about your book. I love it here, How Great Leaders Create Organizations There People Never Want to Leave. But I want to back up about the research that you did as an undercover millennial. So when you were in this kind of aspect of working with all of these different organizations, what was some of the findings that surprised you the most?

Yeah, I think that really the power of a moment, the power of connection, you know, if we focus on just for a minute, the student -teacher connection. I mean, my life was forever changed because a teacher created a moment for me as a young child with a pair of drumsticks that changed the course of everything for me. I was the kid that always had a hard time sitting still and was constantly in trouble. I just couldn’t sit still. And everybody saw the issue. They saw a limitation and it took one educator who said, no, I don’t think he’s a problem, I just think he’s a drummer. And that was Mr. Jensen, my fifth grade teacher, and he told me to stay after class and he put my very first pair of drumsticks in my hands and changed my life. And in our research, the first and pivotal point is kids never really talked about curriculum. Teachers never talked about really even the theme of the year or…

the different teaching strategies. What they remember are the moments. The moments when somebody got to the part about them. The moments where an administrator communicated their potential and their worth for a student. The moment when a teacher decided to see what was right in them instead of seeing what was wrong and truly became an advocate in their life. Not just someone who was trying to develop them through curriculum or to perform at a certain level. Advocacy versus development and the moments that educators created in the lives of students.

It’s so powerful and we talk a lot on the show about the power of being seen and heard and I think you speak to that so beautifully. In my research for this episode, I was so excited to see your background as a professional drummer that from that moment of your teacher identifying you as you know as seeing that that potential in you as a drummer that you moved into being a professional drummer. Can you share a little bit about how that happened and maybe some of your experiences in that realm?

Yeah, so music has been a massive part of my life and all of it stems back to that one moment when an educator changed my life with a pair of drumsticks. It’s been 25 years now that I’ve played the drums professionally and I’ve toured and recorded all over the world. I’ve been on America’s Got Talent. I was the head coach for the Utah Jazz Drum Line. I coached at Utah Valley University, the Green Man Group.

I’ve been on, again, America’s Got Talents. I played the drums with Tim McGraw, Carrie Underwood. My whole college education was paid for because of scholarships, music scholarships. And, you know, I don’t say all of that to go, wow, good for you, Clint, but I say all of that to go, you know, because of one person, because of an educator who decided to see what was right and created a moment that allowed me to live a better story and I’ll never forget him for it.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, we are, we’re an organization who believes in the power of the arts, that the, that creativity and the arts have the power to unlock the potential of so many students. How did music do that for you as a student and as a, as a human?

Yeah, the ability to just express through non -verbal communication. I mean, the drums are very loud, right? They definitely make noise, but it’s a story. Even today, what I do is I travel around and speak to educators and speak to events and conferences. I’m soloing. I’m doing solo performances. I’m not touring with a group. I’m not playing with a band. And so the expression of being a solo artist on a drum set, I believe, is the ultimate form of storytelling in percussion because you do, you take people on a ride and it gives me the ability to express so much of who I am through music in an engaging way to where I’m not saying a word, but I’ve got an audience of 2 ,000 to, geez, we’ve got an event coming up where there’s gonna be 8 ,000 people in the audience and they’re right there with me. They’re feeling it, they’re…

They’re on the journey to the dynamics of the highs and the lows, to my facial expressions. You know, drumming requires so much. It requires all of the mental capacity, the ambidextrous movement between your hands and your feet, the interdependence that’s required. And so much of that, I think, has translated even to other parts of my life. I fly helicopters, and helicopters require that interdependence and that ability.

to move all of your limbs at different times and different ways. And I don’t know. So it’s been something that definitely has opened other avenues and other opportunities for me just through, again, how much I’ve loved it and how much it can move people. The drums are so powerful in that way because they’re the foundation of music. Almost every song, right? There are songs that don’t have drums, but there is not a song without a rhythm.

There is not a song without timing and that is what the drums are. We’re not so much a melodic instrument as we are about time. And that time is the foundation of what moves people. And I love that about the drums.

Yeah, and I have so much respect for that Clint. Our audience knows this, you probably don’t. My background is as a music teacher and so my training was as a professional musician. My instrument is my voice. But in my college career, we, you know, of course had to work on music theory and so many other things. And I will never forget my music theory classes when I’ve had to work on, you know, three times, you know, 6-8 time in one hand, 2-4 time in another hand, working at the same time. Those things are so difficult. People don’t understand that if they’re not a musician. And so drummers get it. And you guys, I don’t know how you do it all the time, but the fact that you can do it with your hands and your feet all at the same time and keep it all going and somehow have that happening in your brain all at the same time while your hands are moving. It is just, it’s mind boggling to me how percussionists can manage all of that. And the fact that you’re also doing it with an audience and bringing them along for the story. I love that, that people don’t think of percussion instruments, particularly the drums, as telling a story. They often think of that as something that vocalists do or maybe even melodic instruments, but you’re absolutely right. The drums do bring you along for that because it is, that’s the heartbeat, right?

That’s the heartbeat of a human, right? Yeah, yeah. So let’s dig into your book. I love it here. Clearly, this is a book that focuses on employee retention, which is one of your areas of expertise, right? And with the huge exodus of teachers that we’ve been seeing over the past three years, it’s a topic of real concern in education. It’s one of the reasons I’m really excited to be speaking with you today because I want to get your take on this. So give us a big picture overview of this book, why you wrote it, and how it’s structured.

Clint Pulver 

I’m really proud of I Love It Here and it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my career and I’ll never write another book again. Because it is so much work. It took me four years to write the book because you have all of the collective research and writing a book that is compelling and engaging and not just regurgitated information that’s already out there in the world of leadership and retention was something that I really tried and dedicated so much of my life and time to doing. And I think in doing so, we didn’t just create a book that kind of hit the list and disappeared, but a book that is continually a perennial seller. It is a management classic. It is something that is timeless, that you read it today and you read it 10 years from now and it will still ring true on, again, like you’ve mentioned, helping people feel seen, helping people feel understood, realizing that teachers have a life outside of the classroom.

And creating a place ultimately, I think that’s why, creating a place ultimately where people, specifically teachers, they thought that they could go home better moms, and they go home better dads, and we create better families because of the time that they spend in the classroom at the school, and it is a place of fulfillment. It is a place where when burnout takes place, they have support. Communication is there, the recognition, all of the things that the book talks about that the research mentioned, that’s the ideal. And the reason why we called it the title that it is, I love it here, was that was what was so significant and the foundation to the book, is not when I would go in and teachers would say, you know, I just can’t wait for summer. I hate my job. I can’t stand my principal.

But the magic was when I would go into a district or I would go into a school and the educators would say, I love it here. It’s the best school I’ve ever been a part of. It’s the best experience I’ve ever had. I’m so lucky to do what I do. I love it here. And then why? Why? What were those administrators doing? What was the culture creating to cultivate that type of a buy -in for the educators? And so that’s why we titled the book, I Love It Here.

Yeah. Can you give maybe a common thread? I know there are many examples and there are many reasons, but can you give maybe one common thread that you found that from the schools that did have that, that when teachers, because there was something that you said just a second ago that I think I want to highlight. You said that when teachers can go home and be better moms and be better dads because of what they experienced at their school. That is so not typical of what we traditionally hear. So what is a common thread of schools that had that kind of experience? What are they doing differently?

So much of it stems from the administration. It stems from the principal, it stems from the vice principal, it stems from leadership. Leadership always, so about 67 % of all turnover in education we could transfer back to the principal. We could transfer back to the superintendent. We could transfer back to even sometimes overall control of curriculum or forcing teachers to just again not be creative or to innovate or even connect and love a student in the way that they wanted to that they had they were so micromanaged they were so suppressed in in in what they wanted to do as educators that it became it became a job not not a joy and so

If you are a principal or you are an administrator, you’re the number one reason why we lose educators in this space. You’re also the number one reason why they stay in this space. Well, I will second that to the kids. The kids were always the number one reason why a teacher decided to stay, why they continued to do what they were doing, despite a harder, toxic environment with leadership. But aside from that, it was leadership. And so,

In our research, there’s four types of principals in every school. We could always tell whether a principal was rocking it or not, creating an environment where people could survive or thrive based off of two things. The standards that that leader had and their ability to connect. Standards and connection. And the first principal that we found was the removed principal. This is the principal or the leader that was just burnt out, hired, just should have left administration 20 years ago and they’re still there. So they’re low on standards, they were also low on connection. Just another year, welcome to the school, the more I don’t hear from you, the better it’ll be. And so that created disengagement. So all teachers, all faculty, everybody’s removed from the principal because the principal’s removed from them. The second was the buddy.

This is the principal that was really high on connection, but low on standards. So they would rather be liked. So they wanted everybody to love them. They wanted everybody to, they didn’t want to ruffle feathers. They didn’t want to, and so it created a sense of entitlement. This is where at times teachers would become more of the administrators than the administrators because they just wanted to be everybody’s friend. The third.

And sometimes the most common was the controlling administrator. The individual that was very high on standards, low on connection. Kind of that my way or the highway. Like be glad you’re here. You don’t want to be here, go find another school. You want us to love you, no smile. We give you a paycheck. Tomorrow’s gonna be worse. Like that kind of a mentality that’s just, and so what that created was rebellion.

This is where you had teachers, administrators constantly going head to head. But the magic of all of the research, Susan, that we found, and the foundation of really creating a great culture where teachers could be seen, they could be heard, they could be understood, a place where we could create a culture of significance, not just success, significance. It was founded in what we called the mentor administrator. Not the leader, not the manager, not the administrator, the mentor. This was the individual that was high on standards, but they were also equally as high on their ability to connect. And what did that create in the relationship with the faculty? Respect. They were not always liked, but they were respected. And mentorship was truly the key and the beauty of what our research showed.

Yeah, and I wanted to dig into this because I loved this understanding of the mentor as a leader. So I do have a question because I’d run into this sometimes with administrators. I work with them a lot. And I have a phrase we work with a lot with administrators called 100 % responsibility 100 % of the time. That we take responsibility for our own actions, not anybody else’s but our own 100 % of the time. And even if that means that it’s a hard look in the mirror.

And sometimes that means that sometimes they have the best of intentions. They don’t want to be controlling. They’re trying to, they really have high standards for their teachers. They’re trying to do the best they can. They’re not necessarily trying to be the buddy, but they’re trying to have a good relationship, but they fall short in some areas themselves, right? They may, we’re not going to call it incompetence, but we’re going to say that they have gaps that maybe they didn’t learn in admin school or in their master’s programs or wherever, right? And they’re open to mentorship, but perhaps they don’t have access to it. Where do those admins fall in this? Because I think this happens a lot, Clint. I think that admins want to keep their teachers, but they have these gaps and they themselves don’t know how to fix it. How do we address those kinds of leaders?

Great mentors were always being mentored. And so creating a tribe of mentors, creating a culture and environment where superintendents, administrators, even teachers, they have a space and they have people to lean on. The Mr. Jensen that changed my life, he was just a simple ripple effect of the other teachers before him. There’s also, I think that there needs to be a focus on leadership development and leadership training, whether it’s specific curriculum whether it’s a book like I love it here. We’ve done our master class series that we provide to educators and leadership in education to keep the message alive, to provide ongoing training. Because sometimes that happens where they put in their time and they’ve worked their way up the ranks and they interviewed really well and congratulations, you’re now the principal. You did your training, you got your master’s degree and we just throw them into these positions.

You say, lead, get it done, get it done. And the ongoing training, I think, is a key element that needs to happen. Both, I think, in a formal way, but also in an informal way with key individuals and great mentors that they’ve had in their life. Sometimes people have said, you should be the leader that you wish you had. And every time I hear that, I think to myself, no, no, no, you should become the mentor that you were lucky enough to have. Who are the great administrators, the great teachers, that made the difference in your life? That is repeatable. That is replicable. We can find great strength and influence from that, and I’ve seen it time and time again. Great mentors were always being mentored.

Absolutely. And I think also leaders don’t have to stand alone. There are instructional coaches, there are team leaders and like department heads, right? You can build a leadership team and a mentorship team that you could lean on each other, right? We could still use those same kind of strategies together, yeah?

Awesome. So one of my big takeaways from your book was that relationships are really the bedrock, right? The bedrock of everything here and building those strong relationships across both your working relationships with your peers, your leadership, from leadership to teachers, as well as between teachers and students, right? And that taking the time to build those relationships is never a waste of time, even though time is short.

So what are some of your favorite strategies or methods for building those relationships so that people want to stay?

Yeah, so if you’re an administrator and you’re listening to this, every one of your faculty members, your team members, every one of them is asking you as a leader this simple question. And it’s, let me know when this school, let me know when your vision, let me know when this all gets to the part about me so that I can get to the part about the kids.

And sometimes we hear that as leaders and we think, well, those entitled little shining stars in my life. Like, you know how busy it is on my end, you know everything that I’m having to do, you know everything that the state’s requiring, you know the 15 parents that I’ve talked to this morning. And I would say it’s not so much about entitlement as it is about good leadership and good mentorship. And two things that we have seen is really its potential and worth, that great leaders were able to do. How can you communicate the potential and the worth of your teachers? So let’s focus on potential first. If I say potential, I want you to think of growth. Growth. How can I grow in my position as an educator? Not just grow up the ladder, not just grow in what I make as an income, but how can I grow as a human? How are you growing teachers? Not just employees. Like again, I’ve seen many, many times how districts have created opportunities for growth, from reading books to bringing in speakers to specific training, creating opportunities to listen to teachers to know what they want to grow into. I had one principal, I’ll never forget this, he said, listen, he went to all of his teachers and said, listen, I can’t pay you anymore right now. It’s just not feasible. Okay, we’re paying you a fair wage of what educators are making right now. There’s nothing I can do. I also can’t necessarily promote you. Like, there’s, you know, unless you want to get on the administration track, you want to go get more school. Like, I can’t really do much there. He said, but I can, I can help you and your family get out of debt.

And he went to every educator that wanted to and the school provided the opportunity for every teacher to enroll in Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. And it was so simple, but to the educators, that meant so much. It’s like, he’s trying to help me be a better parent. He’s trying to help me be a better me. You know, she’s trying to influence me in a way that I get to go home a better mom. And it was so cool because, 19 of the educators in that school with the support of their spouse and their family had completely paid off their homes because of that administrator. And I’ll never forget that. And here’s the thing, some people are listening to this and saying, well, Clint, that’s a nice idea. Like we don’t have a budget for that. Or I don’t think that would work for us. And the hope is though that you listen to that and you think, what am I doing to create a better person in that classroom? Not just necessarily even a teacher, but just again, how do we create better people, not just employees? And so communicating the potential is important. I think a growth development plan, something to grow into, something to look forward to, something to hope for. Are there certain things that an educator can do that merits the opportunity for more money or more flexibility or… a different opportunity teaching a different subject or a different whatever it is. I think the administrator has the opportunity to sit down and say, what do you want? What are you looking for? What do you need? And then then let me let me tell you what I’m going to do as your administrator to advocate for that. How can I want to know how I can walk with you in the pursuit of what matters to you? And then also, what is the educator going to do in this?

And then, and then here’s the thing that so many educators miss so often, and it’s the follow -up date. It’s consistency. You know, we all start, you start the year off on, on this high energy and all of the dreams and the possibilities. And then mid -year we’re just a wreck. And by the end of the year, it’s like, I just have no energy left. And so how do we consistently keep the main thing, the main thing? And how do your educators, how do your team members know that what matters to them? What matters to you as the mentor. And then lastly, Susan, just focusing on worth, it’s recognition. That’s recognition. Recognizing your people. In our research, we found that, I mean, there’s things like vocal praise, time off, flexibility, Taco Tuesdays, bringing food in, awards different accolades. Sometimes, again, money. Money mattered on how people were recognized. Sometimes we can do it, sometimes we can’t. Experiences were so key. We had a district that the school rallies and creates funding opportunities to send teachers to, it’s called Get Your Teach On. It’s a massive event that teachers love, and that was a recognition thing that the administration does to send these educators to have an experience.

So the point I’m making is there’s all these different things, but the number one out of all of it, out of all of the research was vocal press. That was the number one thing that teachers just kind of wished they had a little bit more of. It was also the thing that’s crazy to me because it costs an administrator zero dollars to do that. Like that a boy, that a girl, keep it up. Like thank you for everything that you do.

I see what you’re doing. I see the time and the effort. Just a thank you, vocal praise. How can we systemize that recognition to where an administrator can put in their phone every Wednesday, I’m gonna take 10 minutes and I’m gonna call somebody, I’m gonna send an email, I’m gonna write a note. I had one administrator that he would find the parents of his teachers and he would send notes to the parents just thanking them for the daughter that they raised and the son that they raised and the good that they are doing in the school and the lives that they are changing. Like that little act did more for that administrator than anything at calling people on their birthdays. Like those small little acknowledgements that I see you, your efforts matter, and you’re worth it. You have worth here.

I think those are two foundational things that are important, potential and worth.

Amazing and you know, what we appreciate appreciates, right? So and One question though around that When what do you tell people who are worried about boundaries when we talk about helping people be better people and so often administrators are focused so focused on the professional growth goals, you know following Danielson and making sure that the teachers are hitting their their growth targets that the district sets and

And I totally agree that people are people. You are not cogs in a wheel. We should help them be the people that they want to grow into. And so having a personal growth goal there could certainly support them. How do you address people who are concerned about overstepping a boundary in terms of supporting personal goals?

I think it’s up to the leader to understand what those boundaries are. Every educator has what I call is a status. They have a status. I spent a lot of time in the medical field. I worked in the OR and the doctor would always call out and say, hey, I need a status update. What’s the status of the patient? Really what the doctor was asking for is what are the vital signs, right? The heart rate, respiratory rate, body temperature, and blood pressure. Those determine whether that patient was okay or not. And so… as someone in the OR, as someone who would help and provide care, we would check the status of the patient. The status would determine how we would treat them. Sometimes patients needed a lot more care. Sometimes they really didn’t. And after we would treat the patient in a certain way, we would then recheck the status. And it is not a one size fits all approach in leadership, especially mentorship.

And some educators are gonna have boundaries. And they’re not going to, you know, I don’t need an award. I don’t need you to tell me every Monday that I’m doing a good job. It’s your job as the leader again to get to the part about them. And everybody’s different and it’s unique. I think that’s the hardest part of leadership. And I see it where leaders, they read a book, right? Or they take a course or they took a class in their MBA program and they try to fit everybody into this mold. Everybody into this one -size -fits -all approach. And you just can’t do that. And understanding people in a way, to treat them in a way that gets to the part about them, takes time. It takes time. It takes effort. And that’s the other thing that I write about in the book, is the power of simplicity.

Most leaders, most administrators, or even teachers, they’re really good at the to -dos. But the most significant teachers were masterful at the to -don’ts. When’s the last time in education, instead of a to -do list, you created a to -don’t list? I think that the good teachers, for the most part, you know what you need to do, but the greatest, most significant educators and leaders were masterful at the things that they needed to stop doing.

Yes, absolutely. And not just teachers. That applies to all of us, I think. Clint, before we go, I always like to ask this question of everyone I have on, because I love to hear the variety of answers. So from your experience, how can creativity impact education today?

Creativity is the fuel that ignites the ability to dream. And I think more people need to dream. We need to dream more while we’re awake. And the ability to learn how to cultivate the possibilities of what could be is what’s found in creativity. And that fuels dreams. And when kids, teachers, leaders, moms, dads, families have the ability to do more of that.

I think we win. That is the foundation of writing a great story.

Well, where can people learn more about you and more importantly grab your book. I love it here and all of the good stuff.

Yeah, thanks Susan. All the places. So there’s my website, which is clintpolver .com. The book is available anywhere books are sold at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any online retailer. And then I’m on all the social media platforms as well. Happy to connect with anybody.

Fantastic, and we will put all of that in the show notes. Clint, thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a wonderful conversation and thank you for all of the work that you are doing to help everyone stay where they need to stay and also to be inspired to do the work that they are put on this place to do.

Thank you, Susan. It’s an honor.