Beyond the Blame Game: Why We Need to Support Our Teachers

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All right, welcome to the show. Jen, how are you today? I am well, thank you. For those who may not be familiar with you and your work, especially since we have a teacher audience, would you just introduce yourself, your work, and an overview of your career thus far?

Jen

Absolutely, absolutely. So my name is Dr. Jen Schwanke and I am currently a district leader in central Ohio area. I work for the Dublin City Schools and I have, I think, you know, the math gets a little fuzzy, but I think I’ve got 25 years in as a teacher, an assistant principal, a principal, and now working as a deputy superintendent. And I think the thing that brought us together, Susan, was I’ve been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to publish four books for school leaders. And that work is really fulfilling. But what drives me is the teachers that are going out there every day and doing this work and often feeling very misunderstood, not only by society as a whole, but by those who don’t understand the work of it, you know, the grit of it that takes so much time and energy every day.

Susan

Absolutely. And I think one of the reasons that I wanted to bring you on is obviously to talk about what’s in your books and we’re going to get there. But also because I think based on reading your books, you have this wonderful ability to connect back to what it’s like to be a teacher. And often when I speak with teachers, that’s the first thing they say is my principal doesn’t understand or doesn’t remember what it’s like to be here or they’ve never had experience being where I’m at. And so they get frustrated because they feel like they they’re not seen or heard. And you have this unique ability to really be able to see that, connect with that and then share that with other leaders, which I think is amazing. I did kind of want to before we talk about the books, I wanted to talk about something that I actually read today. And I think this is just kind of to pivot a little bit.

I actually read some startling statistics about teacher retention today that were coming out from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that from 2020 to 2022, we’ve seen a 50 % decrease in teachers who are practicing teachers, that 50 % have actually left hard numbers. And we’re looking at an exodus again in the next two years on top of that.

So as a leader who really does value teachers and what they’re going through and knows that perspective, what do you think we need to start doing or to really have to dig into in order to turn this around? How do we retain teachers? What are the things that we need to do from a leadership perspective to really start to make this shift so that we can keep the teachers that we need?

Jen

Well, I think there’s about 49 questions wrapped up into what you just said. I think there’s a…

perspective is, you know, we are living in a culture of outrage right now. Everybody’s mad all the time, right? And so teachers go to work and they meant to have a career and a life where they were helping and they were giving and they were literally teaching the next generation. And what they find themselves doing is deflecting, defending, explaining to parents who bring their own sets of beliefs about what school should be.

or they bring their own baggage from their own school experience. And yet the teacher doesn’t know the depth of that story. And so what it sounds like to the teacher, and let’s go ahead and include coaches and principals in this too, what it sounds like is, I am not liked, I’m not respected, I am perceived to be doing harm. And none of that is really at the core of why people are so angry. They’re angry for reasons that teachers will never fix. So.

I think the problem is actually two layers. I think we have to worry about the teachers that are currently in the profession and how to make their work not only bearable, but something they love. And the second level is why in the world would anyone want to be a teacher, right? Our younger generation is looking at that and saying, no. So we use the word teacher shortage. And I think we use that in terms of today. I think we have a problem in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years because our entire society is built on the presumption that our children will be educated and ready to take over. So I think there’s two layers. What can we do about it? I think we need to start pushing back against unfair, inaccurate, slanderous, libelous accusations about education. I think we need to fight for our teachers. It’s easy to say, let’s pay them more.

I think a lot of teachers would rather be happy than rich. Nobody went into teaching to be rich. Nobody’s like, well, this will pay for my Martha’s Vineyard second home. Nobody did that, right? So I think that’s a, it’s not a solution. I think the solution is in all of us, every one of us, Susan, you, me, our children, our grandparents, all of us saying, wait, we need teachers and elevate them to the status and respect in a society that some other countries do have.

And it can’t be you, it can’t be me, it has to be all of us.

Susan

Yeah, absolutely. And I think to your point about the pay component, I mean, we know from research that there’s a level, right? I think it’s $75 ,000 where people cap out. They’re like, okay, once you get to that level, now what? And certainly there are teachers that are not making that and we need to address that. But there’s the opportunity, something else that you said is providing a place and a way for teachers to do something that they love.

How do we do that? How do we cultivate a place where teachers can do things that they love?

Jen

Well, and that’s an essential question that we’re going to have to put some toothpaste back in the tube on this one, right? So when A Nation at Risk was published, it terrified our country. And by our country, I mean, our parents were scared. Our teachers were not implicated necessarily, but they were in the crosshairs of that. And there was such fear that we would fall behind that what did we start doing? We started testing students until they got no breath left in them. And we started putting data to everything. And please don’t misunderstand. I do think data -driven decisions are essential. You can’t make decisions that affect a child based on your gut. You do need data, but it can’t be the only thing. So what we’ve lost is play. We’ve lost joy. We’ve lost impulsivity. I know teachers that work in a Northern state and winter is hard, right? And so spring comes and they’re like, I want to go out for an extra recess. Do you think I can?

Why are they questioning that? Why are they scared to embed a spontaneous 15 minute play activity for their children? That’s where we’ve lost our way. We’re so serious about rigor and academics and keeping up and pushing kids that we have forgotten, I think, the, and there’s two layers to that. The authority and autonomy that a teacher needs to make decisions has been lost as has the fun. And you know, you,

When you put your coat on to go to work and you think, well, I have to go to that place today. That’s not what we want our teachers to think. We want them to think, Oh, what will today bring?

Susan

And I love that because that’s what we try to cultivate in our organization is the idea for arts integration, STEAM, the idea of inquiry and exploration and curiosity and creativity. And so often we hear from teachers who say, but I can’t because, you know, because my administrator is going to walk in and they’re going to ask me where I’m at on that page or, you know, that I’m supposed to be on in the pacing guide or parents are gonna ask why can’t my, why am I not spending that extra time teaching my child to read, you know? And so, what do you say to that?

Jen

Well, and Susan, you’ve identified one of the most damaging emotions humans feel, which is fear. So if you’re scared that your boss is going, that your principal is going to criticize that you’re not on page 49 of standard L .6 .92, you’re scared. And what you’re really scared of is, am I going to get in trouble? Teachers don’t like to get in trouble. Am I going to lose my job? Am I going to be written up? Am I going to be reprimanded? And…

You know, teachers are tend to be, um, tend to be very in tuned to being compliant and doing the right thing and following the rules. And so if they feel that they haven’t done that, but they know in their heart, they’re doing the right thing for the child that puts them in an impossible situation internally. And so what I would say to that, I mean, I know how I lead, I, I would walk into classrooms and I’d say, Oh my gosh, the energy in this room is fantastic. I don’t care what page you’re on.

I see learning, I see engagement, I see students learning to get along with one another. I mean, I don’t know about you, Susan, but I want our young people not to be able to formulate a complicated equation as much as I want it to be nice and be kind and be able to work through a problem. And there’s such a push to shove rigor into lower grades. And my question is always, why are we hurrying? Why do we want algebra one for seventh graders?

Why? We know about brain research. We know pushing things down doesn’t make our school stronger. It may look like it. It may make our parents feel better, but it’s not effective. So if I were king of the world, I would say, administrators, let your teachers teach. Support them. If you have someone who’s doing damage or who is truly not able to manage a classroom, that’s where you intervene but you don’t go into a classroom where you have an incredibly strong environment and you have students who are engaged and passionate about their day and criticize it. It’s, you know, that’s like kicking somebody in the knees and they can’t walk after that.

Susan

Yeah, absolutely. So that actually brings me to the book, one of the two books that I wanted to talk about today. You’ve published two in the last two years, which I mean, hello, congratulations, that’s a lot. So the one from 2022 was The Teacher’s Principle. And in there, you outline the three P’s. Can you talk about those three P’s? Because I think they go along really well with what you just shared.

Jen

Right, right. So I’m actually very proud of this, the title of this book, because I like to think of myself as a teacher’s principal. And because, you know, what’s a school without their teachers? So I just kind of developed this mindset where a teacher’s career is, could be looked at as kind of a tree. So the roots are their purpose, why they’re there. Those are deep. And often we don’t really know where, from where, whence they camem but it’s really hard to change purpose. You can, but it’s hard to do. Then you have your trunk and that is a teacher’s priorities. And that can change. It can grow, it can shrink, it can get damaged. And those are the things that happen over the course of a 30 or 40 year career that may shift a teacher’s priorities. I don’t think it’s great if you say to a teacher, what’s your highest priority? And they’re like, my job, my students, my, you know, because we have family, we have our homes, we have, you know, death, we have divorce, we have trauma, we have things that happen over the course of our lives that may affect our priorities. And so what may look like a problem, such as a teacher’s late every day because guess what? What? Her husband travels or her partner is gone and she’s raising four kids by herself. And so yes, she’s 10 minutes late. Of course, does that impact her teaching? Maybe not. So those are the questions I pose.

And then the leaves, the branches of the tree are patterns or habits or routines. Those are the easiest to change. And those can usually change with guidance, with mentoring, with suggestions, with questions. And that may be those, the example I like to give of a pattern is, does the teacher stand in the hallway between classes and say hi to every student that passes and oh my gosh, you have a Pittsburgh Steelers shirt on, what? Those kind of interactions.

Um, and, and a school culture can help teachers set habits and routines. Now, cautionary tale. I know of a teacher, I talk about it in one of my books. Um, she happens to be my sister and she had a principal who was insistent that a routine be that the date be on the whiteboard every single day. And he would knock her down on her valuation if the date wasn’t accurate. Well, 25 years later, she’s still mad about this. My friends, she’s still mad because it wasn’t relevant.

to her teaching and her environment. But she would get lower ranks because she wouldn’t follow that particular habit or routine. So we have to use common sense. We have to cultivate the habits that matter and let go of the ones that don’t.

Susan

Yes, so how you determine that because that is, I think, the key, I think, of communication between the teacher and the principal, right? Which ones matter and to whom?

Jen

Right. Well, what do we do with seven -year -old Susan? We ask them, hey, what matters to you? What matters to you in this classroom? What are our norms going to be for this year? I think I have always wondered why we don’t talk about that with the professionals in our buildings. What is it that we value? Because one of the, well, there’s two topics that will fire up a teaching staff. One is stress code and the other is being on time or leaving early.

So if that is a culture problem in your school, maybe school leaders should get teachers together and say, let’s talk about this. Is this something that is, are we going to die on this Hill? Are we going to set norms? Because many, many school leaders, I don’t know if I want to say that. A lot of times schools are run as though it’s 1940 and there are rules and there are things we have to do and if we don’t, we’re all gonna just sit around and talk about that person not being on time or we’re going to let that damage our collegial relationships. And once that happens, it’s really hard to get that back.

Susan

Yeah, yeah, one of the, as I’m thinking about this as you’re talking, and these three P’s, the purpose component, I think this year has been beat to death for teachers, the whole remember your why. I think people have been digging into the purpose thinking that that is going to re -energize teachers and teachers are sick of it. They’re like, I remember my why, but that is not enough anymore. And then I was just thinking about a conversation that I had with two teachers this weekend, both of them middle school teachers and both of whom have been in the profession, like mid range, 15 years, 15, maybe 20. And both of them said, in the next five years, I don’t think I’m gonna be there anymore. I’m probably looking at like being a realtor.

Or something I said, well, why? Like that makes me sad because you’re excellent. You are excellent educators. And they said, because we feel like we’re working with our hands behind our backs. And when they’re giving me examples, like their examples were in currently in their, in their district, if there is a fight that happens, or if students are engaging in some sort of activity that they’re not supposed to be, teachers are not allowed to engage them.

They’re not allowed to stop them without reprimand. If they physically stop them or if they try to even say something, they will get reprimanded. And they feel like, well, then if a student gets hurt and we’re watching it, like what happens then? The priorities. So what I’m thinking is like what you’re sharing here, what’s really happening is not the priorities for the teachers, but actually the patterns that are being focused on are not congruent with what the patterns that the teachers care about are because the or maybe the priorities are just off. But there’s certainly it’s not the purpose, which is what seems to be the focus for so many this year. And the teachers are like, wait, wait, wait, that’s not it. There’s so many other things that are causing these difficulties. People are being asked to have their union rep come to meetings because they’re getting reprimands for ridiculous things that don’t even matter anymore. Wait, what is going on? And I keep thinking we’re focusing on the wrong P, right?

Jen

I agree, and I think you said two things I want to really dissect there. The first is to question a teacher’s purpose when things are hard as a way to control them is condescending and insulting. And I know myself, if someone walked in and said, now, why is it that you do what you do? I’d be like, oh, please, come on. I know why I do what I do.

So we have to be careful. It’s a lot. It’s like I mean, I don’t want to be too dramatic here, but it’s kind of in education, we grab on to terms and they become cult terms and they are used to control people, whether it’s students, whether it’s teachers, whatever. I would say and I’m going to take a risk here. I’m probably going to regret this, but there are some terms that have have.

As education always does, the pendulum is so wide, right? And that’s probably why you stepped away and started the company that you did. The pendulum is preposterous. And so here’s a risk I’m gonna take. Don’t anybody be mad at me. Let’s think about trauma -informed practices or restorative practices. I don’t think there’s a human being on earth that would argue the value of those in the right situation. But as with both pendulums, we are so far on one end that many schools, teachers are not permitted to say to a student, stop it. No, we do not do that here. They are not allowed to say that. Now, go out into the universe and say that out loud. Now, let’s not tell children to stop dangerous or inappropriate activity. The say out loud test fails every time. We have to be able to look at a scenario and respond in a way that’s best for that child and for the rest of the children in that room.

So I agree with you, it’s bananas. We have taken these terms that were meant to support our most vulnerable children, trauma and restorative practices, and we have now made them a weapon to use against teachers. So I myself have had that thrown at me. I have said to a child, stop it. We will not do that here. If you do it, you are not staying. And I have had someone look at me and say, have you read up on trauma -informed practices?

And I’m like, yes. And many times children of trauma need someone to say, that’s the line, that’s the no. And they will then react. So I worry that as an education system, we have made guardrails a bad thing. Guardrails are, children crave guardrails. They want to know where the no is. We know that because they push toward the no.

And then when I get the no, sometimes, yes, indeed, they push harder because they want to know if that no is real. And if we move that no, then in their minds, they say, oh, okay, then that wasn’t the no. Let me find the new no. So, um, I could preach for hours on that. I, the reason I apologized proactively is I don’t want anyone to come back and say Jen Schwonke doesn’t understand children of trauma. I grew up in deep rural poverty. I have stories, right? I was loved.

That’s not what it was, but I do not feel we are helping children when we let them run the show. We have to teach them the skills that we are actually letting them, we’re letting them abuse, that’s probably too strong a word. We’re not stepping in and being the adults in the room sometimes. And not for lack of trying. I think most teachers are like, no, no, no, I want the guardrails. Please let me build the guardrails.

And as leaders, we have to let them build the guardrails. Now, many leaders are scared because they dread the phone call from the parent, right? Then again, culture of outrage, parents get very, very angry if their children are pushed. I love this phrase, Susan. No is a complete sentence. No. So we can use that with children and we can use it with parents. No, your child is not allowed to punch another child in the face in this school. No. No. And we can stop there.

Susan

I love that. And I’ve used that many times with a nose, a complete sentence. And to be quite honest, you know, and I have this conversation with educators a lot that, and it’s the reason that I have this podcast. I stepped out of the classroom prior to COVID. And so we have a platform that shares a methodology that’s research -based that works beyond just, you know, it’s not a fly by night thing, but recognizing that things are different, times are different, and so I so appreciate knowing that people like you who are in the midst of it, that you recognize what’s really going on and under the surface, and I’m so glad that you finally said what I think is really on the minds of so many teachers. I can hear them nodding right now and saying, yes, somebody finally said it. We need the no. We need the no, which brings me to your next book that’s the one that’s the latest release, which I’m so excited about. You just released it in February, the Principles Guide to Conflict Management, which I think is appropriate right now. Give me a little insight as to why this book right now and some of your thoughts behind that.

Jen

Right. Well, if I could rename this book, if it had a different name, it would be How to Avoid the Stomachache. I think every teacher and every school leader has had that stomach ache where they’re like, I’m gonna need to go in and I’m gonna need to fix, mediate, facilitate, whatever, this problem between two people. And I don’t know how to do it. And what’s ironic is teachers do this all the time with children, all the time, we’re students. They mediate conflict and they don’t think twice about it. But then when a parent is mad or a colleague is mad or their principal is mad,

They get that stomach wrapped in knots thing, right? And principals feel that way too. They’ll have a situation, they’ll be like, listen, I didn’t create this. I didn’t cause it. How am I gonna cure it? So I wanted to write a book about how to have confidence in addressing conflict. And…

The big, a big aha for me was my dad said to me about 10 or 15 years ago, he said, you know what your problem is, honey? I said, no, please tell me. He said, you always think you’re going to get to a place where you’re done with problems. You’re always like solving it. And you think, okay, now am I done? Okay. Now am I done? Being a teacher and being a leader means you’re never done. That’s literally what you signed up for is a career of problem solving. So you can flip that in your mind and you can say, okay, I’m going to go to work every day and know they’re coming.

I can embrace them and I can think to myself, this is an interesting problem to solve. Wow, there’s some really interesting personalities I’m going to need to navigate here. There’s some history I need to learn. And so it can become a problem, like a puzzle to put together rather than something to dread of anxiety. My intent was for this book to be one that builds confidence, builds more of a clinical scientific approach to navigating conflict rather than going in and hoping to be the sweetest person in the room and now everybody gets along because that doesn’t work.

Susan

Yeah, yeah. And as many of our guests are gonna know, one of our most popular episodes ever was when I interviewed Amy Sandler from Radical Candor. And I think the work that you share in this book and the three phases of the cycle that you talk about overlays really nicely with this idea of Radical Candor and being honest and open and transparent rather than trying to be nice, which is what so many of us.

I mean, who wants to not be nice, you know what I mean, in a conflict situation? But I would love for you to just share, what are those three phases? And if you could give us like an example of what that looks like, I think that would be really helpful.

Jen

Sure. Sure. And by the way, it’s an honor to parallel our work because I do like one of the things that she says too is radical candor is not being mean either. It’s not, it’s not being some sort of a big bully that’s going to come in and tell everybody what to do. So my, the cycle that I write about in this book is anticipate, analyze and act. And it’s important for me to say that this isn’t, this would make my dad happy. It is not a beginning and an end. It is a cycle constantly.

So anticipating is just knowing the personalities in your school, knowing the systems and structures that do or do not work for certain people. Seeing when conflict’s coming. Now you won’t always have that part of the cycle because sometimes conflict comes out of left field and you’re like, whoa, I didn’t see that one coming. That’s okay. The next step is analyze. And I think too many people act too impulsively and quickly in this step. And I certainly do and did many times where you think, okay, someone came to me, they’ve got a conflict, they told me their story, I get it, I got it, I’m gonna go in and intervene. You likely don’t have it. You likely don’t have all the perspectives and all the information you need. In education, we are so rushed, right? There’s constantly a sense of urgency. And so we sometimes act too quickly. And I say in the book, many times if you just pause and wait, the problem works itself out.

We sometimes jump in and make problems or make them bigger when we don’t need to. So the analyze step of it is really know what you’re dealing with. And then the act step. And I say in the book too, action isn’t always actually an action. Inaction can be acting. Doing nothing can be action. But sometimes you do need to step in and intervene, facilitate, mediate, direct. But the analyzing stage has been

I also think that the act step many times should involve help. Run it by someone else. Call a friend and say, hey, I don’t know if I’m seeing clearly here. Here’s what I know. Sometimes the friend will say, it doesn’t sound right. Do you have all the information? And then that sends you back to anticipate and analyze. So to me, it’s a big circle. It’s a cat chasing its tail. It’s endless. But again, the problems are never done, right? So it’s okay, that the cycle is endless.

Susan

I, for one, I love the analyze step because I have a tendency, as I think many of us do, to not skip the analyze step, but again, move through it quickly. And if I, and then when I get to the, and I’ll act just to almost get it off my plate, like it’s a to -do list, you know, so that my plate is clear at the end of the day. And then when I’m home and I’m working on dinner and I’m talking about my day with my husband, and I’m working through the process again of the conflict, right? I’m thinking, oh, wait, there might have been this thing that maybe, you know, and you catch yourself going, oh, there might’ve been this other thing that I should have thought about first. And I can’t tell you how many times I have caught myself in that. And so I’ve learned like you with this, with the cycle that if we can, to give myself at least 24 hours before making any kind of decision unless I’ve been given a deadline that is less than that, you know?

Jen

Well, right. And if we break that down, you’re sitting there in your kitchen, you’re stirring the chicken, you’re talking to your husband, you’re in a really safe and relaxed environment. You can’t be wrong right then, right? And so that’s probably when your mind relaxes enough to let those other variables or factors in. And so what we need to do is replicate that at work. We need to allow ourselves to take the time. We need to have trusted people who will say, oh, it sounds like something’s missing. My superintendent frequently says, what is it that no one’s telling me? What is it that I’m missing here? And I love the vulnerability and the opportunity that’s embedded in that question because we do need to be able to say, I don’t know everything. There’s something that I need help with here. And so we need to recreate that environment where we can say, wow, I may have missed something or there was another alternate path.

And, you we’ve all had that sinking feeling where we’re like, wow, I didn’t handle that one right. But usually it’s not because we tried to handle it wrong. It’s usually because we didn’t analyze enough and we didn’t slow down. And trust me, I am the pot and I am the kettle. And I am so black with both of these because I’m impulsive and I love my checklist. Love my checklist. And I love to make an X and I love when my desk is clean at the end of the day. I have to fight and push against that tendency because slowing down is when I am truly making the wisest decisions.

Susan

Absolutely. And I love that question that your superintendent asks, because I think it parallels really nicely with one that Elena Aguilar has taught me that to ask, which is, what’s the question that I should be asking you right now? That I think that is something that I’ve learned to ask people in a middle of a conflict that I often, I don’t know what I should be asking you that you’re not telling me that you’re thinking that I should be picking up on, you know, the unspoken rules that that maybe I that again would help me to anticipate maybe or understand the history behind it.

Jen

Right. Well, and there’s two outcomes to that, right? Susan, the first is you get the information you need, but the second is you’re telling people, I’m willing to listen. I’m willing to not be the one that knows everything. And I think this is an especially vulnerable area for leaders because many times, because we’re the boss, people won’t say, hey, you’re making a misstep here.

They won’t say that because they’re not going to push up against their boss. So the boss needs to be the one that says, what am I missing? What is, what question do I need to be asking? Um, tell me, I want to know. I, I, I often say, I want to be wrong here. Please make me wrong. Um, so by doing that, you’re telling people wrong is okay. And I don’t know everything. So join me in, in educating one.

Susan

Yes, so, so good. Before we go, if there’s, I like to ask this question because I think it’s so telling. So just to kind of understand, if there’s one thing that you would like all educators to know about leaders and leadership, what would it be?

Jen

Oh, wow. I think here’s what I’m going to tell you. Leaders and leaders are people too. We all carry such heavy baggage of insecurity, right? And I think teachers are feeling that acutely because they’re taking it from all sides. They’re just a punching bag. I think it’s important to remember that’s how leaders feel.

Honestly, that’s how parents feel right now. Social media makes parents feel less than, which makes them feel feisty and they want to fight back. So we all are carrying the insecurity baggage. And leadership does not make you immune to that. There’s a phrase out there that says leadership is lonely.

I don’t agree with that. That’s not been my experience, but I also think that’s because I make a concerted effort to have a team to, um, to embrace human fragility in myself and in others because it’s there. And we often see walls and barriers in a connection to someone else that isn’t there. The barrier isn’t there.

I think about a time I said to my super net and he was going to our governor’s house for lunch and I was like, Oh my gosh, what’s he like? He goes, Jen, he’s just a man. It’s just a guy. So that’s, that’s what leadership is. We’re all just human beings who get up every day, you know, do our very, very best. We’re going to make these, we’re going to make missteps. And so if we can just extend one another a deeper understanding, I really think we can, we can not have this become a toxic profession that no one wants to join.

Susan

Wonderful. So where can people learn more? Get your books and stay in touch with you.

Jen

Well, thank you for that, for allowing that. They can buy my books at Amazon or my publisher is ASCD, which they’ve been, they’re wonderful. They’re a great organization. So you can go to their website or buy on Amazon and people can go to my website at jenschwanke.com. I do a lot of consulting and a lot of working on mentorship, coaching, PD, training, that kind of stuff. And they can go to the website and find all that information. 

Susan

Fantastic. We will include all of that in the show notes so that everybody knows exactly where to find you. Jen, thank you so much for today. It’s been a learning lesson for me for just being with you today. And so I really, really appreciate it.

Jen 

No problem. And I do hope that people take a look, if someone’s a first time listener, take a look at the incredible work you’re doing. And you know what I love about you, Susan, is many educators want to do what you did, but you did it. So I hope you’re talking a lot too about the bold, brave moves you made.

And I hope other people are seeing that too, because we don’t all have to fit into the same box and put the lid on. We can be bold and brave. And I congratulate you. When you reached out to record a podcast, I went down a rabbit hole of the work you’ve done. It’s incredible. So thank you too. 

Susan

Oh, well thank you Jen. 

Jen’s website

Jen’s books