Get SmART about Classroom Management

All right, welcome Michael. I’m so glad you could join us today.

Thank you, I appreciate you inviting me.

Of course, of course. So for anybody who’s not aware of who you are, can you give us a little bit of information about yourself and your background and your work to this point?

Yeah, so I have a website blog called Smart Classroom Management that I started in 2009. And then since then, I’ve been writing, a lot writing an article a week for 15 years, and several books, e-guides, that kind of thing, all centered on improving classroom management.

Yeah, and you have practical experience in the classroom, right?

Yeah, I’ve been teaching since 1991 and been pretty obsessed with class management since then. I’m creating a classroom first for myself that was peaceful, well-behaved, the kids loved being part of and that I also was really excited to come to every day and so that’s been my obsession for the past 33 years.

Yeah, and I gotta tell you, you and I started online on the same year, and I consider that to be like grandfather years at this point, like we are the OGs of the internet, I gotta tell ya. And so we remember what it was like before you had to film everything. So yay for that, your blog is a treasure trove of just everything that you have found. And what’s interesting to me is that I found you way back in 2009 when I was scouring blogs to kind of try to build my own capacity. And you were very much like me, like this is what works. It’s treating this like a lab. Like this is what works. Let me share that with you so that you have success with that. And you’ve continued that. So thank you for everything that you’ve shared with educators. Like I said, your book, the first, I think, was it your first book was the one with classroom management for art, music and PE teachers.

Thanks. No, I’m not sure which one that was, but the first one was Dream Class that I wrote a little back in like 2008. I didn’t know how to sell it, and so I just started a blog. That’s that’s yeah.

Okay. Yeah. You just put it up on the website, right? Because that’s what you did back then and, you know, it works. But that particular book I had sitting on my desk, it’s like torn and tattered. It was so helpful to me as a music teacher. So can you give your philosophy of classroom management broadly speaking to everybody who’s listening?

Yeah, the most simple thing was, and this is sort of what I brought with me my first year of teaching when I didn’t know a lot, but the one thing that I really, how it came to me I have no idea, but I really felt strongly that I wanted the students to love being there because it makes everything, everything easier. And then so it’s… that, making sure kids are happy to be there looking forward every day, combined with strict rules and consequences that protect that. So when I say strict, I mean non-negotiable boundaries, not strict as in strict in how you interact with your students, but just protecting their right to learn and enjoy being part of the class and your right to teach and to enjoy teaching. So that’s it. Those two things combined, if you do nothing else, but those two, you’re gonna do pretty well.

Yeah, and I think, you know, neither one of those things is easy. I think we automatically assume that it would be easy for people to buy into the idea of having students enjoy your class, right? But I happen to know a lot of educators who actually shift that paradigm and are interested in enjoying the class themselves, right? I want to enjoy being here. And sometimes put that ahead of their students’ happiness for being there, not intentionally.

But it happens, right? And so just that mindset shift of, how can I build an environment where students are happy to be here? And I don’t, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you would determine that by how many fun games you’re playing or how many balloons you have up in the classroom or if you make a Starbucks cafe, right? How do you determine what makes a happy classroom?

Yeah, and so that’s really a kind of a misunderstanding that when teachers hear that, they think, oh my gosh, I’ve got to spend all this time after school creating these fantastic games and these experiences for kids. It’s really not about that at all. It’s about your personality and enjoying being with them.

That’s what they cherish and enjoy more than anything is your relationship with them and how to build rapport with them. And so a lot of the blog, there are 700 and something articles all in support of that original idea of a classroom they enjoy and then protecting their right to enjoy it. And…

But that’s the big thing is to kind of set that aside of having to think about that you have to have these amazing lessons. That’s not what it’s about. And it’s more about your enjoying your students, embracing your personality.

Yes, and not feeling, I think this is what’s changed for me a lot over the last 15 years, seeing Instagram pop up and Facebook evolve and Pinterest and TikTok and seeing what so many other people are doing and comparing that, you know, I call it compare schlager, you take a shot of that and it feels like you have to be a part of that, right? Like you have to do that, to your point, it’s really about the relationships that you’re building and if you can focus on that. Even if you’re an introverted teacher who’s not that, who doesn’t love to be around thousands of people all the time, that can still work for you. The other side that, oh yeah, and the other side that you talk a lot about is the boundaries, right? The strict enforcement of what you’ve set up.

Absolutely, it can work for anyone.

And sometimes when I watch you online and when I read your things, sometimes it’s counterintuitive to what I would anticipate maybe, right? Because it might not be providing a consequence that I would normally think would be okay, but instead, does it fall back to the originating boundaries that you set up, right? Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s correct. It’s sort of a contract that you make with your students, not so much in that they’re, I don’t believe students should take part in your creating the rules for your classroom. You are the leader of the classroom. But those boundaries are set up and taught really clearly ahead of time. And the why you have those boundaries and the why is always…

benefiting them. It’s never about you. It’s always about what is best for them and then you explain it. There should be a lot of transparency and clarity and explaining it and modeling it so students know ahead of time and kids want to know where the boundaries are. If they don’t, they push and push until they find them. The thing of it is, is once they know where the boundaries are, then they can relax and enjoy being part of the class.

The other thing is having boundaries doesn’t mean that we are restricting fun or anything. You can create wherever you want your boundaries to be, but they must be set in absolute stone. You have, that’s part of the rapport building process is your students have to trust you. And if you don’t do what you say, if you don’t follow through like you say, then they’re not going to trust you and you’re not going to have that, that influential rapport.

Yeah, and the counterintuitive diffs that I was kind of referencing, you just mentioned something that I think would be counterintuitive to a lot of people in that you set the rules as the educator. You don’t invite students along to develop those rules. And that goes counter to a lot of people who are out there saying, oh, we should have contracts that students have to devise. Why do you think that teachers should be the ones who do that?

Because you’re the leader of the classroom and you have to show yourself as a leader of the classroom. They have to look up to you as someone who’s going to, with authority, as someone who’s going to, they can trust and look up to. They don’t know any better. And the other thing is that it’s not honest because what teachers are doing essentially is they have in their mind what they want their rules to be and they pretend as if the students are creating it for some kind of buy-in.

It means nothing, it does nothing, and it’s just manipulative. And that’s the other thing that we are at Smart Classroom Management. We’re against any classroom management strategy that tries to trick, manipulate, intimidate, any of that, that kind of thing, the caught being good, all that stuff is thrown out the window, the bribing, the rewards, all that kind of stuff. We don’t deal with any of that. We really simplify it. 

So teachers have been saying in the last year or so, even more than that, maybe that students are different since the pandemic. I’m curious, do you find this to be true? And has any of your classroom management changed since the pandemic?

I think it’s true. I really do. I think kids are different. And the only, no, there isn’t a change. This is what’s best for kids. This is how we’re gonna do it. And so it’s more doubling down and being better and clearer with your expectations and setting up your classroom management plan and following through and all those sorts of things. It just may…

I found that it’s taking a little longer to get your class set exactly how you want for everyone to get on board. Not a lot longer, but it does take a little bit more. But yeah, I definitely think kids are different.

So when you say that kids are different, how do you think that they’re showing up differently to school and should we, not just in classroom management, but are there any adjustments that we should maybe consider as teachers?

Well, I just, I think misbehavior is, is worse for sure. And so I think just, it’s important to be really good at classroom management. And I think it’s always been important, but now more than ever, you can’t be okay at it. You can’t be, I was pretty good before the pandemic. That’s not going to work. You have to be really, really good and really on it. And it’s doable for everyone, but you do need to put in some reflection and some study. And the other thing I think is really important is that you stick with one method or one approach. Obviously we think that smart classroom management is the best easiest approach for anybody, but pick one approach and stick with it. A lot of problem, a big problem with teachers, reason why they struggle is because they pick and choose and they watch these short videos and they try this for this and this for this. And these things don’t always fit together. They don’t always mesh. In fact, most of the time they don’t. And so students get confused because you’re sending them some opposite messages. 

So why do you think that classroom management then has become so difficult for educators? I know I stepped out of the classroom several years ago before the pandemic, so I have no place to speak about classroom management since the pandemic. That’s why I bring people like you on who are experts and who are living it. I know that when I was in the classroom, right, the one of the hallmarks that we continually talk about, and especially administrators harp on when we come into the classrooms. But I think since the pandemic, I have heard teachers who are leaving because of classroom management, because they or at least this is what they’re saying. So why do you think it has become so difficult?

You know, why from the student’s perspective, I’m not exactly sure whether it’s, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

I’m not sure whether it’s the kind of the social media things, the phone addictions that have increased or the time that they missed, that maybe that it stunted their growth a bit, the time when they were at home and not at school during the pandemic. I’m not sure if it’s those things, but kids are definitely different. And I think the other thing that really hurt teachers and kids is that as soon as they came back, the standards were lowered and they’ve stayed lowered. And so we’ve allowed the dress codes have kind of gone by the wayside and the students have chance after chance after chance to get their work turned in. So we’ve sent these messages that there’s no urgency and it’s okay and this kind of thing. And what it does is it takes the purpose away and kids need purpose. We all need purpose to feel happiness and to feel vibrant and have goals and those kinds of things. And when we take them away, you’re gonna have those kind of behaviors because kids are looking for something to replace that. And so we need to constantly remind students of their purpose, constantly raise the standards, raise the bar instead of lowering it. And the other thing is when students are misbehaving, teachers think, you know what, I’m asking too much, I’ve got to back off.

But the opposite is true. You ask more of them, you raise it even higher. You focus on the details. And kids love these things deep down, and they’re changed by it. And so that’s what we have to do, even more so now than ever before.

I think that’s such a great point because there was a point the pandemic where everybody was like everybody needs some grace Right everybody needs a little relax because it’s not normal and we can’t pretend that it is normal But I don’t know that I’ve seen anybody who comes back to where to the standards where they were And I think that’s a wonderful point that we keep Allowing these things to keep to an excusing them to a bit Instead of raising that bar

So what are some specific classroom management tools or strategies that you would be able to share?

Well, like I said, with this so much material out there, but I think if someone were just starting, I would say a classroom management plan, which is just a set of rules and consequences that protect learning and teaching. And there has to be a compelling reason why you have those rules. So you need to be able to answer that to any parent, administrator or students, why do you have this rule? Well, here’s why: it always goes back to the student. So that’s number one, I would say. And then, I don’t want to open up a can of worms, but I would say get rid of the extrinsic rewards. It really ruins intrinsic motivation. It makes classroom management harder. It helps you get through the day, but it saps their own motivation and it makes classroom management harder,  makes behavior worse. And it’s just a real pain for the teacher. It’s hard, you know, to, you have to continue to up the ante and give more and better things. And the kids now, days I’ve heard teachers say they complain about no matter what kind of reward if they get them. 

So if you’re going to take away that kind of extrinsic motivator, which I’m all for, what would you replace it with?

Well, you replace it with the love of being in the class. That’s the greatest reward you can ever possibly offer. And any other trinket or whatever pales in comparison to them love being in your class. I’ve never given rewards, even after my first year, maybe the first few months I started to. And then I’ve written about how my mind changed. But I never have, and I’ve never had students even mention it or complain about it. And so, and it’s just changes, it changes everything. And they don’t even realize sometimes why they like your class so much, but a lot of it is because you’re valuing them and you’re valuing learning and the feeling you get from, kids get from progressing and doing welland having their teacher who they admire tell them that they’re doing well, being honest with them, that means a thousand times more than any fake reward given for kids doing what’s expected. 

So, rewards given for expected behavior, which is really common. In most classrooms I visit, I see that. And it’s just, it lowers the bar on what’s possible, what students can do. And you’re kind of holding them back instead of pushing them forward and for more and expecting more from them.

Yeah. Well, and to your point, when I think about that, when I think about the prize box, right, I think about who has a prize box in the real world. The dentist has a prize box because nobody wants to go to the dentist and sit in the dentist chair, right? The car dealerships have a prize box of candy and pens and whatever they can get you to do so that you sit and have to endure, you know, getting a car. So…

I don’t know that we want to have that model in our classroom, to your point, of rewarding you for being there because it’s such a pain to be there otherwise. And so I think the model that you share of excluding that and instead raising the bar is so important. How do you handle it when students then do not follow the rules and are continuously not following the rules?

Well, you follow your classroom management plan just as it’s written. So whatever your rules are that protect learning, you follow through. And you follow through just like a robot, or I use the example of a referee. So you walk over and you give them their warning or whatever, and then you turn on your heel and walk away. That’s it. And then you continue to follow through and follow through and follow through. And that combined with, you know, when students like being in your classroom, it- It makes your rules, your consequences.

So when you have a classroom that they enjoy being part of, it makes your rules and consequences meaningful to students. It matters to them. And so the idea is there must be a difference between sitting in the experience of sitting in time out, let’s say, or time away, or whatever you call it, and the experience of being a regular contributing member of the classroom.

If there’s no difference between the two, then the behavior isn’t going to change. But if they’re sitting there and they’re thinking, I want to be part of that. 

Yeah, so the difference in being part of the class that you want to be part of, and they’re sitting out, there has to be a wide golf. And in the beginning of the school year, it’s small. That distance between them is, you can’t really see it. In a lot of classrooms that I visit, it’s like this. And the teachers wonder, why doesn’t my consequences work?

By the way, I’ve got my hands together if you’re listening. And you want to pull them apart. And you want to pull them apart so far apart. And that is the experience of being part of the class, contributing part of the class, and not really being part of the class by sitting out for a time. Do not use elevators.

If that distance, you keep widening and widening it and widening it to the degree where everyone in the class feels like I don’t want to be over there. I don’t want that. And it’s doable and possible to do that. And we show you how to do that. But that’s my goal, like first day of school onward is, OK, I’m going to create this distance and keep following through, keep following through, keep following through. And we follow through without, we’re not gonna discuss behavior with that student because we want them to reflect of their own volition. We’re not gonna tell them what to think, how they should have behaved, any of that. That all comes from when we’re teaching our plan and the why, all the why, they know that.

If we leave them alone and we keep following through and we keep creating a place they want to be part of when they sit there, they naturally reflect on their misbehavior. And when that gulf is wide enough, then they’re going to behave. It works every time, no matter where you work, what school you’re at or anything. It’s just, it’s the science of classroom management, so to speak. No one can resist it. It’s human nature.

Yeah, of course. And when you think about what do you want most in the world, you want to be seen, heard, felt, you want to be loved, you want to have a relationship, you want to be in relationship with somebody else or with others. And…

Yeah, you want to be a part of something larger than yourself too. You want to be part of something larger than yourself.

Yeah, of course. So one of the things that you share on your site, which I think is super helpful, is that you have a separate elementary and high school plan. Because I hear all the time from high school teachers, ah, that’s for elementary and vice versa. So can you give us an example of maybe a classroom management strategy or a tool or a process that might look different in elementary versus high school?

Yes, the biggest difference are routines. So in elementary school, tons and tons of routines. And so there’s lots of teaching of routines, very detailed modeling of what they look like practicing. And in this way, your school day is one full of one routine after the next that students take care of all on their own. You don’t have to do any of it. You give a signal and they walk in the classroom, they check, they put their backpacks up in a certain way, they zip them in a certain way, they check their mailboxes, they sit down, they have their homework set in a certain place on their desk, and then they get out their, you know, bell work or they get out their independent reading book or they look up and see a sentence that they have to diagram. So they know exactly what they have to do. And so every routine is like that. And then you can focus as a teacher on great lessons, good lessons, not necessarily just entertaining lessons, but compelling lessons. High school, you have far fewer routines. And when you do have a routine, you can just tell them. 

If you have a high school class that doesn’t get it, or maybe they’re younger, maybe they’re freshmen, sometimes you do have to model. There’s also a technique that we use called modeling in place where it’s kind of more older students appreciate it.

You know, if you’re teaching older students like they are in third grade with very specific modeling like that, they’re going to roll their eyes. But you can model while standing in place, and you can have them practice modeling also. And if your students, again, aren’t giving you what you want, they’re not meeting those expectations, then you can ramp up the kind of detail in the modeling with your class.

That’s awesome, awesome. Before we go, one of the things that I hear a lot is that administrators either are not supporting classroom management enough, or they have unrealistic expectations of classroom management from teachers, or that they themselves can’t handle classroom management issues that arise. So what would be your advice for administrators on how to implement smart classroom management in their schools or with the students.

Oh, to administrators? Yeah, I would say absolutely the best thing they can do is to have one approach and teach that approach as part of your professional development. I think in 33 years, I’ve probably been to one or two professional development through the actual school I was working at. And they were awful by the way, but if everyone is on the same page it makes everything easier year after year students are used to it. And then also when you when you explain to teachers this is why it’s we’re doing it and why it’s best for you and your and the students and why it’s going to be easy for you. You know it’s going to make your life so much better less stressful you know less work more efficiency you know we’ve

We’ve really perfected smart classroom management at this point. And I support any school district that implements it, any principal that implements it. I freely support it and will meet teachers over Zoom, meetings, or whatever. But yeah, when you implement the whole thing, it makes everything easier. Teachers buying in, all that good stuff. And the other thing is that the administrators themselves have to do less work because it’s empowering to teachers. And teachers, I don’t recommend ever sending students to the principal unless it needs to be documented, unless there’s a fight or dangerous behavior or that kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah. And so important is the idea of being able to have one plan, one thing that we’re working on consistently over time. I think, you know, schools in general, just there’s always so many initiatives going on if you can just stick to one thing. And for me, Michael, that’s what I’ve taken away from this entire interview is this idea of simplification. And there’s this phrase that I use all the time called simplify to amplify. And I feel like that fits with what your model is for classroom management. If there was one thing that you could leave teachers with, if there’s one thing you’d like them to know about classroom management, what would it be?

That it’s knowledge-based, that they can really do it, and that it takes some learning, it takes some study and some thoughtfulness and sitting down on your sofa and reading it and laying it out. But once you understand what it is, it works, and it’s not that difficult. It’s actually, will make your life easier.

Wonderful. So where can people get their hands on your books and your materials and your programs and stay in touch with you?

The books are widely available, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, all those places, independent bookstores. But I do my writing. If you’re interested in getting an article every week in your inbox, smartclassroommanagement.com. I also do videos every week on Facebook. And so if they can contact me, there’s a contact thing. You can email me if they’d like. Not too much though.

That’s true. And I gotta say your Facebook videos are super helpful. I watch every single one that comes out. So definitely, if you have not checked out Michael on Facebook, definitely do so. And we’ll put all those links and contact information all that in the show notes for today’s episode. Michael, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your wisdom with our audience. I think it’s so needed right now more than ever and I’m grateful for you and what you share.

Well, thank you very much. It was great and you’re great.