It’s the conundrum we’ve all faced as educators: how do you assess creativity?  In this episode, Laura and Matt chat with author Katie White about her book Unlocked: Assessment as the Key to Everyday Creativity in the Classroom. Discover all the ways assessments can connect with the creative process.

Show Transcript

Matt: Hey everybody this is Matt and Laura Grundler, welcome back to another episode of Creatively Connected Classroom, and we have our wonderful guest host with us, as we always do every episode, Katie White.

Laura: (laughs) Which is, I feel like you find the best people to talk to us. Katie White, author of Unlocked: Assessment as the Key to Everyday Creativity in the Classroom. And I messed that up.

Matt: It’s a mouthful.  but it’s so valuable.

Laura: It resonated so much with me when I found this book, and started following Katie on Twitter, so we’re really excited to have her, and have you on the episode.

Katie White: I am excited as well.

Matt: We would love to hear, I know we’re having some side banter earlier, but we’d love to hear, kinda your journey and a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Katie White: Sure. Okay, so I live in the province of Saskatchewan, in the big wide country of Canada. Which, shouldn’t matter except it kinda does to me because we’re just very placed, land-based here. And so it really just impacts my whole world view. And I have done a lot of things I feel like. So in terms of the whole creativity piece, I started when I was a teenager. My mom’s an artist. That’s who she is. And so as a teenager I started teaching art classes and working in an art gallery in our city through university and just the arts has just been part of my life and so that’s kinda where that whole piece came from.

Katie White: And then I got myself into education and I started teaching. I’ve taught every grade level from pre-kindergarten to 12, every single grade level. And have had a taste of kind of the development of a kid, from beginning to when we spit them out at the end. Kind of intrigued in what that means for kids, and where creativity fits in all of that.

Katie White: And then I became a Vice Principal or an Assistant Principal of a high school and a principal of an elementary school, and then I worked in central office, which is where I still work. I’m a coordinator of learning during the day, and then I started writing books and talking to people, so that’s kind of, it’s just been everything from soup to nuts.

Laura: Love it. Wow.

Matt: Wow, that’s a huge area.

Katie White: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura: Well, you know, it’s funny I don’t know much about Susk, I can’t even say it.

Katie White: Saskatchewan. Yeah.

Laura: Thank you. I’m met a lovely from up there, and she did say that, living there informs a lot of the decisions she makes as a teacher. So that’s  that you said that. And it’s just a different experience I think that wherever we are, that informs a lot of who we become in life. And I love that your mother was an art teacher, or artist.

Katie White: Artist, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, working artist. So, creativity, as the jumping off point, why is it important in education?

Katie White: Well, I actually can’t think of a reason why it isn’t important. How bout that? Okay, so there’s just a whole bunch of things that I think about when I think about this. Like, I think about, I guess I come at this from the perspective of the whole child, to use a bit of a catch-phrase, but I think of students as really complex human beings who are searching just like adults. And I think creativity, creative experiences, the opportunity for creative expression, is a way of becoming a human being. It’s how you sort through things. It’s how you find your voice. It’s how you learn to make decisions and handle failure, it’s just a really great, I don’t know, mode of doing all of those things. And on top of it, I just feel like creativity positions kids in an education system in a way that really aligns with what I believe about children anyway, which is that they’re autonomous, capable, you know thoughtful, people.

Katie White: And I just really like the notion that creativity opens the door to owning things, right? To deciding what matters. So there’s all of that, and then you pile on top of that the cherry on the sundae, which is that creativity is just fun. It’s just fun. It’s really awesome, and so I feel like it’s a great vehicle to get at all kinds of learning, you know? So it’s just all good.

Matt: So, yeah, no it is, I guess your first question that you had was, how can we make sure that our assessment practices do not stifle risk-taking, and encourage play?

Katie White: Yeah, so that’s a huge question, right?

Matt: It was pretty deep to start out with, so I’m just curious what your answer would have been.

Laura: Or was, yeah.

Katie White: Well, I’ll never remember what it was, ’cause my brain is too full, but I think what it has to be what I’m saying now, right, if it’s what I believe, it’s going to linger.

Katie White: So I’m a little bit worried about the story of assessment in North America. I’m kind of concerned about just that sort of visceral experience that people have in relation to it, right? And I feel like it’s another one of those tools, like creativity or processes, that can be used for good or not good, and I just feel like in a lot of ways it’s being used for not good. And I think part of it is that it’s how we view assessment. Like, how we’re treating it. What we do with it. The purpose we think it serves.

Katie White: So if you take the notion of risk-taking and play, and the importance of it, first of all, you have to honor the importance of it, and then you say, how can I structure assessment, which is intended, quite simply, to tell me where I am right now in relation to where I’m trying to go. If there’s a way we can do that really important skill of assessing, but do it in a way that lets kids think that if they didn’t have the right solution, or they didn’t make the right decision the first time, that, that’s okay, that they can still recover, then I think that we’re using both to their maximum effect.

Katie White: So some of the things that I would have said around that is, and this is a little controversial sometimes, but I’m a fan of delaying criteria-setting for a while. I talk about the four stages of creativity, and exploration is that critical first stage and I think that when kids have a chance to mess around without limits, when it’s time to sort of set limits, or establish criteria, set goals, I think it’s just grounded in that experience. So the criteria that emerge from conversations with kids are much richer because they’ve messed around for a bit, and they have a sense of what made them happy and what didn’t, and what surprised them.

Katie White: So delaying criteria-setting is one of those processes. I think while we’re talking about delaying things, how about we delay summative assessment for pretty much as long as we can. And let kids try and try again, and try again, and sort out what it is that they’re trying to achieve. So those are just a couple of things. I’d say the third thing, I guess, maybe the big theme in the book is self-assessment.

Laura: Yes.

Katie White: Trying to help kids own their own goals, right? And I know because you folks are involved in the arts, you know the old tried and true, like the kid who comes up to you with their work and says, am I done? And a great art teacher says, I don’t know, are you? Like, you tell me.

Laura: You tell me! That’s exactly.

Katie White: Which is so annoying to them, right? ‘Cause they are really used to; this is how I get from A to B, and the more I can pester my teacher the greater the chance of them telling me every single step, and I just love that we can say, “This is up to you my friend. What are you trying to achieve?”

Laura: So many things you say can resonate so loudly with me. And one of the things we see in the arts is that assessment has not always been used well in their general, whatever other classrooms they’re in. And they’re very in this mode of; I have a checklist of things I have to get done to get the A, right? And I wanna know exactly what those are from the very beginning and once I’ve got it then what else do I need to do? So they want these step-by-step, and that’s not what we want for kids. We want them to be able to discover and use their critical thinking and problem-solving skills to really get to this deeper, like you said, rich place. And how do we encourage our teachers to delay that criteria-setting, and get comfortable with the exploration? Because I think that, that’s scary for some teachers.

Katie White: Well, not only is it scary, there is some merit to the argument that we can hit a target that we know exists, right? And so I feel like the very prescriptive work that we find in the area of assessment, comes from a good place. I feel like people are trying to help kids see the target. And so they’re very articulate, very specific about that, but you know, every coin has two sides, and the problem with that perscriptive approach is, while it certainly helps kids get to the target, if we do it at the wrong times, or if we don’t engage kids in it, we remove all elements of thinking. It’s just compliance. And I do think it’s a bit of a leap of faith. I think that for some teachers, the hesitation to delay criteria-setting is because they don’t want to do a disservice to kids.

Katie White: There’s that element, right? ‘Cause we wanna do what’s best for kids. But I think on the other end of that is the really solid belief that I have that kids will get there. They will get to where we need them to get to. We have to believe in them. And so, you know, what I maybe would say to somebody whose messin’ around with this for the first time is; don’t delay criteria-setting for three weeks, but in an hour class period, give them ten or fifteen minutes to engage in materials or images or questions before we jump right to it. You know the whole, write your goal statement, or your standard on the board practice has, again, has merit but who gets the chance to state it is I guess, up in the air. Let’s let kids play around and say what questions do you think we’re trying to answer today? What questions might we be trying to…

Matt: Essential questions…

Laura: Just the whole inquiry process. I think when kids have a chance to explore something, that’s when they become curious, and then that’s when they start asking those questions. And you said that one of the big pieces in the book was self-assessment, and I know that in our school district, we’re really looking at assessment carefully right now. And we’ve talked a lot about student agency, and what role do our kids have in owning their learning? And then also, I mean, do grades or assessment pieces really inform instruction, because that’s what they’re meant to do, right? They’re meant to tell us; where do we go next?

Laura: As a teacher, every assessment I give should give me some information to inform my path of instruction for those kids. And I think that because in our society we’re just, there’s so much on the shoulders of teachers that it’s hard because you’ve got to check, teachers also have to check a lot of boxes. And giving ourselves that permission to say, “Okay, I’m gonna slow down, and I’m gonna really think about this differently, and get in a different mode,” is a shift. I know that It’s gonna be a shift for some of our teachers just because our parents have a certain level of expectation as well. But, I don’t know, Matt and I have talked a lot about the grades we get from our elementary schools, do they really tell us what our kids are learning? Or what they know? Or what they’ve mastered? Or what they could learn? Or what interests them? Or what they’re curious about? I mean, those are really rich questions I have as a parent myself, right?

Laura: Yeah, so grades are a whole, that’s a whole…

Matt: That’s a whole ‘nother bucket. And there isn’t time for that.

Katie White: But it is, yeah.

Matt: I mean, how would you suggest maybe we build in that self-reflection or that strong reflection for the kids? And even for anybody, really?

Katie White: I think that what you would find in the book is kind of my theory being put to the test here. I wonder if wonder isn’t the way to get at it. So with each part, you know, in the book, there’s all of these reflection questions. Possible questions that we could invite kids into. And you know, somewhat of a sidebar, when I used to teach senior art, for a couple of years, I did an action research project out of my own curiosity on journaling in art classes, and how…

Laura: (laugh) -We’re only laughing because we’re really big on that.

Katie White: Okay, so I was trying to get really rich thoughtful entries from high school kids, and…

Laura: Challenging.

Matt: Good luck with that one.

Katie White: But anyway, at the root of it, the summary that came from my action research, and trying a bunch of things was that it really comes down to the prompt. The question that we ask kids really largely determines the quality of the response that we get. And so, I think that inviting our learners to think about their work as it’s developing in a really purposeful way is pretty akin to self-assessment, certainly it’s great entry-point, right?

Katie White: So if I ask an open-ended question, about how they’re feeling about their work, or which pieces of their work are making them the most frustrated, or curious, or what surprised them, then it’s an easier step to, so you’ve got another sixty minutes to play around with this, what goal do you have for yourself? What are you thinking you’d like to try and accomplish and how can we set you up to be able to do that? I mean, that’s self-assessment right there. But it’s making the time and the space for it. It’s having a really solid prompt so that kids, that punctuate their thinking so that it slows them down enough to be careful. It’s inviting them to articulate what they want first. And it’s also giving them the tools and the strategies to be able to dive back into a piece and sort of get familiar with the notion of revision, which is super hard for kids.

Matt: It is. I mean I know when I was teaching elementary, we would usually do a gallery walk, like a mid-process gallery walk, where the kids were a good fifteen minutes into their project, and I’m like, “Okay everybody, stand up. Take a walk around, see what other people are doing.” Then that invites more idea to then go, “Hey, I really like what this person’s doin’, so I’m gonna try in mine.” So I found that to be a great place to start because so many kids are so guarded of oh I’m not gonna show my art because it’s not finished yet. And I’m kind of forcing them to step out of the box, to feel a little bit uncomfortable so that way they get used to that. And once they got used to that, then it was like, okay, now I’m going to go talk to two people and say, “Okay, I know this is done, or I feel like I’m getting close, so what can I do, or is there something I can do to improve it?”

Katie White: Absolutely. One of the things I used to always do in that kind of environment- I’m a huge fan of gallery walks, or laying the work out and having the kids reflect as a collective, is the idea that some kids can get pretty discouraged when they see other kids’ work, that they think represents, in their mind, what the right work is. And so I also made a pretty big point during my group critiques, to really, really, verbally hone in on the aspects of work that I thought kids wouldn’t recognize as intriguing or interesting, right?

Katie White: Because, I don’t know, as our teachers, it’s one of my favorite things, or actually as teachers, is finding that voice or that thought or that way of doing something that is not traditionally, what lots of kids think good art is, but that is so profound. Balance, and color, and so really helping kids understand that, even when you’re celebrating your strengths, there’s things that can come out what we weren’t expecting and that’s part of self-assessment. It’s those hidden things that pop out of our work that were magical, right? That we didn’t plan for.

Matt: Oh yeah.

Laura: I just took a workshop yesterday where that was really, you know, that’s hard for all learners, and especially as educators when you’re in the seat learning, it reminds you about that struggle. The teacher in the workshop was telling us you just need to let the mess happen. And that you just need to let go, and see where it goes. And it was so hard to let go, and that’s, we just have to… (laughs). But I think that, that’s the thing, as educators, especially when you’ve been teaching a long time, you know, it’s like, oh, I need to put myself in my students’ shoes and remember what this feels like.

Katie White: Yes, absolutely. Do you know the area of creativity where I feel that the most profoundly now is in my writing. Because it’s those moments where I am self-filtering to the point that I’m paralyzed. And so, I have to remind myself about my own creative process. Which is half of what we’re trying to do, right? We’re creating people who are creative, we’re helping them. And I think part of my process is to say, “Katie, just write for fifteen minutes. It could be garbage. Just, you gotta get something on the paper because you can’t work from nothing, right?” And I feel like that leap off the cliff, like you forget about it when you become a polished practitioner because you’re not struggling with that. So I think getting yourself into, immersing yourself in new situations where you feel uncomfortable, is healthy for having us become better teachers.

Laura: I fully, fully agree. And just staring at that blank page, that paralyzed feeling, I often think, I’ve seen that with kids, you know? Whether it’s writing or drawing or whatever it is, for a lot of kids, we have one that struggles with math in our family, and it can be paralyzing. And you have to get them to that comfort place of, you just gotta dive in and get past that. Going back to the revision process, and understanding that it’s just your first draft. It’s just your first draft. Start. Just start.

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Laura: I don’t know, I’m in the same paralyzed place right now trying to write something and I, I don’t know why, ’cause if it was paint or ink or something messy, it would be fine, but for some reason certain things do that to people and we just have to and get past it.

Matt: I run into that all the time now that I’m teaching middle school. Just even the brainstorming process. Okay, I’m like, you need four brainstorming ideas, and then you sometimes get that stare of, I can’t think of anything.

Laura: Yeah.

Matt: I’m like, how can you not think of anything?

Laura: Well, I’m scared to share what I’m thinking…

Matt: Are people going to judge me? How am I going to judge me?

Katie White: Yeah, and that goes right back to your original question around the risk-taking. I mean, really, at the end of the day, which is why I think it was the first question I asked, is if you can’t get to a place of risk-taking in your room, you really can’t get very far. Like you just can’t get into the vulnerable learning space where creativity lives.

Matt: And I think the more that teachers, ’cause I know I’ve really adopted this philosophy of working alongside the kids. And being able to really showcase that to the students. I mean there are times I’m like, “Hey what do you think?” You know, I’ll lean over to a student, I’ll be like, “Do you think I should go with this way or this way with it?” And I think maybe just sometimes they start seeing that sharing and that kind of vulnerability almost of, and then they start to see how that’s okay. You know, that starts to work on them as well.

Katie White: Yeah.

Laura: Katie, early in the book you have a figure that is, it’s just a really cool, it’s the creative process linked to assessment, and it’s exploration, elaboration, expression, and then reflection and response. And all the way through you have assessment. Why is assessment the connector to all of that?

Katie White: Well, because I think, I mean, assessment in its purest sense, right, of where am I, where am I going, and what’s the relationship between those two things, I think that good assessment like that, where we invite kids into that process is the best way to get them to deeper, richer, thinking. And this really comes from being an art teacher for all those years which is, I see a lot of kids who produce what’s comfortable, and what they’re confident with, right? The kid who draws the race car for pretty much ten years of their art career. It’s for new audiences, right?  And also I’m thinking of little people right in my mind, their faces, who will get a canvas and will paint a big white flower right in the middle of a purple background, and were done.

Laura: Were done.

Katie White: Because it was exciting to paint on this big thing, but I’m painting the same thing that I’ve painted a million times. So I feel like, without assessment, without those tools of, so what criteria are we working on? What’s a way to push that criteria? How can we set a goal that’s new? How can we think about space differently? How can we think about where we put our flower differently? I think that without those kinds of conversations we end up with the very thing that a lot of teachers who haven’t been comfortable with creativity their whole lives mainly are afraid of in the creative realm, which is; who am I to tell a kid whether what they’re doing is good or not, which is a totally different question. But anyway, that’s the perception, right? That creativity is so subjective and so I see a lot of art classes where we just hand out blank pieces of paper and kids draw, and then the hour’s over and then we’re done. And I just feel like it’s assessment that really drives us into; “let’s elaborate on that idea. Let’s expand.”

Katie White: It’s like your gallery walk, Let’s look at other people’s work for more ideas. Let’s seek things. And then let’s figure out how we wanna share that in a meaningful way. Who’s your audience? Who are you trying to connect with? And then let’s think about how we approach this task so that when we head into a task the next time we can apply some of the things we’ve learned. Because we’ve learned that this worked for us this time, right? I just think that, that’s how assessment really drives creativity in a much more profound and robust way.

Laura: Wow, well I’m just sitting here going, well even just the question you asked about whose your audience, I wish more teachers would ask that. You know, I can think about a writing prompts, and who’s this demonstration for, who’s this project for, who is this book report, who are you writing it for? Who’s gonna listen to it? That question alone changes the trajectory of whatever you write, or create, or make and just simple questions. You know, I was looking through here as well, and this book is just talk about things being rich, this book is just so rich. There’s just so much.

Katie White: Thank you.

Laura: I just flip open a page and I find something that jumps out at me, which is literally what I did just here. It’s a chart that has the role of the teacher, and I love this idea of the facilitator of reflective process. Like, that to me, what we were just talking about, that’s really what you’re saying. Is that the teacher, instead of worrying about who am I to assess whether this creativity is good, for lack of a better word, be a facilitator of the critical thinking and the reflection and the inquiry, the good stuff.

Katie White: Yeah, the good stuff, that’s right.

Laura: And withhold judgment.

Katie White: Right.

Laura: This isn’t about judgment, this isn’t about right or wrong or good or bad. This is about inviting children to think about their thinking and their wonder and what they’re doing. It’s far different from judgment. We confuse those two things too often.

Matt: Yeah.

Katie White: Yes. I mean, absolutely, and I think that our kids get confused about that as well. You know, that’s where Matt was talking about the gallery walk, with littles, they start to compare. Is it good? Is it not good? And if we focused more on the facilitation of their reflection process, I think they would do less comparison amongst, you know, and focus on self more, which is so meaningful to their growth as a human being.

Laura: So meaningful. Well and even if you have a child who says, or a youth who says, “You know I really like Billy’s picture, he drew a face way more realistically than me,” okay, we can take that judgment. We can take it, but then this is where assessment and reflection are just so symbiotic. We can say, “What is it about his face that you think makes it look realistic? Talk me thought that and which aspects of the face that you drew are frustrating you? And so can we set a goal to work on noses? ‘Cause that’s something that’s so frustrating? And let’s look to where we can look for that, right?”

Laura: So it’s also, I’m also very, I think it’s important to honor kids’ feeling about their own work. That’s another thing that’s, if we say, “Oh, no, it’s beautiful,” or “You did a great…” Oh 

Katie White: They won’t believe us.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Like, we’re so inauthentic.

Katie White: Yeah, and the trust is blown.

Laura: It’s blown. You gotta let kids, yeah, when a kid says I’m not happy with my piece, we have to take them at their word. Like okay…

Katie White: And that’s an opportunity for us to dig in.

Matt: Yeah, what don’t you like about it?

Katie White: Yeah, exactly, like what could get better? 

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Laura: And it goes straight back to that refinement process. You know it’s revision, it’s, I keep thinking about the Austin butterfly video. Have you seen that?  The Austin twitterfly. Okay, so, Youtube it. It’s a butterfly, and the, I can’t remember the educator’s name, but he’s talking with a group of 

Matt: to these like elementary kids, I wanna say like second grade.

Laura: Yeah, second or third grade and he shows them a picture of a butterfly drawn by Austin.

Matt: The way he was asking the questions, facilitated the students to really start thinking and the process, and how they were wording their responses back about…

Laura: It is a beautiful video as far as that whole facilitation and reflection process and revision process because he shows them, Okay, now Austin asked this question, and this is what he did next to his butterfly.

Katie White: Oh.

Laura: And so for the beginning, it’s a very simple line drawing to the end it looks more like a more realistic butterfly. But it’s really, and again, no judgment, no good or bad, it’s just that, he went through this process of refinement and revision and asking questions. I love to show that video when we’re doing professional developments because it truly illustrates what we’re talking about right now. And it’s fabulous.

Matt: And it wasn’t just about being an art room or an art teacher, I think…

Laura: I think it was a science class.

Matt: It was a regular classroom and so it, and that’s the other thing, you get them out of that idea of, oh it’s only art.

Laura: Art is for only art sake. Art, music, dance, theater, it should be pulled into all classes.

Katie White: All. All classes.

Laura: All, yes.

Matt: Bold.

Katie White: Yes. I know it’s crazy talk, but, come on now. It can be done.

Laura: It can be done! Very authentically and naturally. Well, as we kinda, I think we often say we could talk to our guests for hours on end

Matt: Definitely.

Katie White: I know, I know.

Laura: You’re definitely one of them, and I think, in fact, I think we’re gonna have to have you back on because I just don’t think we got deep into this enough. And I have lots more questions.

Katie White: Okay.

Laura: I do. Questions invite more questions.

Matt: Absolutely.

Katie White: Yeah.

Laura: So, but, I think Matt has one last question for you before we wrap.

Matt: So, what words of wisdom could you impart on us, for someone who’s maybe a little hesitant about wanting to do this, they so desperately want to, but aren’t sure like how to get started or they think, oh my gosh this is way too much, there’s no way I can do that. What kinds of wisdom could impart to us about where to start.

Katie White: Well, this isn’t my wisdom, but I like it, we can’t get to the other side of a lake if we don’t leave this shore. You have to go. You have to start. You have to do your first stroke, right? And so I think, you know what, this is just so parallel to the creative process in and of itself, it’s starting with the initial risk, and it doesn’t have to be big, but it does have to be a risk, which could, and there’s a whole bunch of different ways we could do this. Like, you could start with an invitation or a provocation or something at the beginning of a class, doesn’t matter which class it is; math, science, it’s open-ended, and you invite students to explore and then you invite them to ask questions and you link that to your goal. I mean, that’s one quick way to change the assessment paradigm, the goal-setting paradigm in classroom without very much stress.

Katie White: Or you could try a self-assessment tool. Try a process during any kind of class context where you’re trying to invite kids to really think about what they’re doing. You get them to practice setting criteria, you get them to practice setting goals for themselves, building that kind of autonomy. You could take a math problem that students have worked on and instead of saying, “Yup, we’re good, we’re good here. Thank you for figuring out the correct process.” You could say, “What’s another way we could do this?” Or “What kinds of problems do you think people might be having when they’re having a hard time solving this problem?” So you can flip it. I mean, just a little change that opens the thinking and allows students to find their voice and think creatively is a good first step. But I think we gotta start swimming a little bit. That’s just, I would love if we could.

Katie White: And you know what I would say to teachers who are scared? This is the right work, it’s the right thing to do, not just for students, but actually for us as adults who work with kids. Because there is no greater joy than watching students find their own voice. I just can’t think of anything better than that. So I think we should do it.  I know, right? It’s why we’re doing what we’re doing.

Laura: That’s exactly why we do what we do. I mean, that’s exactly, you know, and when we named this podcast the Creatively Connected Classroom, that’s why. Because kids need a voice. We’ve both been educators and somebody, and we’ve all been students, and somebody helped us find our voice.

Katie White: Right. Oh that’s so profound. Yes, you’re right! Thank you for those people!

Laura: It’s so true, and I honor all the educators in my life that helped me find my voice and I honor those that showed me maybe not the right things to do either because I learned from that as well. But I think that just sitting here today, I know that somebody helps Matt and I find our voices and that’s what we want for our teachers and for our students, and for our community, you know?

Katie White: Here, here. And our world while we’re at it. We got some problems we gotta fix so we need some creative solutions.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Oh yeah. Thank you so much for talking with us.

Katie White: It was my pleasure. I could talk all day, honestly, it’s terrible. But thank you very much for giving me a voice this afternoon, I really appreciate it.

Laura: I really honestly think we will have to have you back on because there’s just, this is going to be an ongoing conversation, I know that we hope to push people’s thinking and we’re going to have to continue at it so thank you, thank you so much.

Katie White: Okay, you’re welcome. Have a great rest of your day.

Laura: You too.

Matt: Hey thanks, you too.

Laura: Thanks, bye Katie.

Matt: Bye Katie.

Katie White: Bye.

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