Welcome to our new podcast, The Creatively Connected Classroom.  This is a joint effort between EducationCloset and #K12ArtChat founders Matt and Laura Grundler.  Each week, Team Grundler will be chatting with hosts of the popular Twitter Chat to dig into innovative ideas that are shaping education.  We hope this helps all teachers build collaborative relationships and try integrating in and through the arts.

To kick everything off, the team is joined by The Tech Rabbi, aka Michael Cohen.  Michael is an entrepreneur and creativity instigator turned educator. He helps schools leverage creative thinking, collaboration, and technology as methods to empower our youth to take on challenges, scale their passions, and be positive contributors to our global society.

In this episode, Matt, Laura and Michael discuss what redesigning education really means and the powerful, practical steps all teachers can take to make that happen.

Show Transcript

Laura Grundler: Great to be here today.

Matt Grundler: Yes. We’ve got our host, Rabbi Michael Cohen.

Laura Grundler: Yes. And we’re Laura and Matt Grundler, and this is the very first episode of the Creatively-Connected Classroom. And Rabbi, it’s wonderful to have you. We have so many questions for you. Recently, you hosted a chat for us and the topic around it was helping creativity beyond the making and mindset versus art set. So, first tell us a little bit about yourself and your personal background and I’m sure your story is pretty amazing because you were lots of different hats as a designer and a Rabbi and a teacher and all these things. So, we just want to hear all about that.

Rabbi Cohen: Great. Well, thank you for having me.  You know, the idea of being the first guest is always exciting because it’s part of that journey and I think that the firsts are always the most difficult because we want it to be perfect, we want it to work, but we just have to start. And a little bit about me, so I am Michael Cohen the tech Rabbi and I was sort of assuming my life would be the life of a designer and hopefully a famous artists with shows in New York.

And I did attempt that, and it was working, but it was very difficult and there was a moment where I realized that difficult things are part of growth, but you need to really be aware of what’s occurring around you. The way that the journey occurred was doing design, doing art, finding an opportunity to teach, you know, like design fundamentals at the Fashion Institute in Los Angeles.

And getting this … I was asked a definitive moment yesterday in a leadership gathering at the school that I worked at, like, “What is your definitive moment?” And I’m looking, I’m thinking, okay, this is it. So I get to share the second time. I never considered myself an educator and I’ve shared this a number of times. I was a designer, and I just happened to teach design courses. That was a side hustle, so to speak.

And I got the first student reviews of my course, and I would share this by the department lead, they were very eager to share the results mostly because they really hadn’t seen such positive feedback from students. That I listened to them, I supported them, they felt independent, they felt empowered and this is a trade school. So it was a spectrum of 17 year olds all the way to 40 50 year olds, and they all have this sort of feeling of empowerment.

To that point that the school then the second semester said, let’s double your workload. I’m like, “Okay, cool.” Let’s make this happen. So now I’m now teaching like four courses and loving it, and then the journey of others engaging with me becoming a high school design instructor, becoming a director of education technology. Then 2016, so I finished this year as my ninth year as an educator and I had left my school in 2016.

Because I needed to rediscover my own sweet spot in what I was doing, and really trying to find a new way to grow. And I was traveling all over the place. Internationally, I visited Monterrey, Mexico and really just a lot of national trip taking. Oklahoma, Indiana, Texas, Florida, really cool places and places that maybe you wouldn’t expect that Tech Rabbi, you know I’m an Orthodox Hasidic Jew, and that’s kind of out of the ordinary.

And many times if you would sort of Google, Hasidic Jew, they tend to be insular in communities and the group that I am a part of, that my family is a part of, is all about spreading the light, and really going out into the world, engaging with people and showing them that they have so much … just incredible potential that’s untapped. And that really has sort of driven me to then realize that that creativity has sort of been this elephant in the room.

Either you are a natural drawer, which there’s no such thing. You’re not just like born and then all of a sudden you’re drawing and what has been sort of interesting as I reflect back to, especially in my younger years in elementary school, there’s this one student, I’ll never forget how incredible he was at drawing. And he made it seem so easy, but then he’s like, “No, I just draw all time.”

Think about that, you’re just sort of see the final work that they do or going to visit some friends at UCLAs’ Art school and seeing people tracing and painting over projector images on the canvas, and sort of like destroying what good art looks like, so to speak. And then realizing, no, it’s about that drive to share a story and an idea and doing whatever you can to achieve that, and some people will do it by spending four years painstakingly painting in oil, and others are going to do it like, Duchamp and throw urinal down on the table and call it a day.

So, it’s that drive to challenge and create a conversation. I think that for me has been the journey to now being a director of innovation at a Boys high school in Los Angeles, Yula Boys High School is creativity needs to take a new … it needs a rebranding and it still should support the ways right now that we understand creativity, and those individuals should of course be encouraged to continue.

But there is a thought process and there’s a way of even partnering with people to do incredibly creative things even if you don’t have that skill. And that’s what really gets me sort of excited to be sitting here today and having these conversations.

Laura Grundler: Yeah, I think everything you said is right in line with our fundamental beliefs and really getting people to see that it’s a process, and it’s a practice.  I think that-

Matt Grundler: I just had a conversation with somebody yesterday, the instant society that we live in, you know you watch those do it yourself shows and people jumped in and go, “Oh yeah, that looks so easy because it looks easy on TV.” You know, they don’t show the struggles or show how they work through those struggles. It’s like, “Oh, here I am I’m drawing,” and then, “Oh look, it’s all finished now.” So, to see that process is really … and to understand that process of learning, it’s really important.

Laura Grundler: And I think for our students, for them to understand that there is failure in all of that and I think that’s where the magic sometimes happens, as in that failure. So getting them there is the hard part. But I would agree completely that getting the shift and mindset for our educators to understand that creativity is something that they can all do. I think you said earlier, you know, some people have this mentality that you’re just born talented, and that’s not the case.

You know, Michael, I got to see you at iPadPalooza in Austin, Texas in something like 2015. I think ’15 or ’16 is the first time I ever saw you. And one of the things that I thought was so brilliant, you know, we’re at this big iPadPalooza with conference and you bring out a number two pencil. Can you tell us about that a little bit?

Rabbi Cohen: Yeah. I need to bring that one back in like, I knew sort of 2018 version pencil 2.0, but it was a moment for me of seeing this over focus on digital. And even, you know, I won’t say who, but for those that know the Rom attack, there is a paperless phenomena of paperless, we got to go paperless. And I read a tweet on twitter, so it’s there, it’s out there that paperless shouldn’t come at the expense of and then elaborated.

I think that was an important point. Because what I was trying to do back in 2015 is really dispel the myth that the device is digital and it’s that the device is the end goal. I got a BFA in printmaking and for those that don’t know what the BFA is, it’s a bachelors with an extra year of studio work. And so I spent a lot of time in printmaking with a lot of different mediums, grease pencils on those stones, woodcarving metal etching tools, Silk Screen, Sarah Graph, all these tools beyond just the pencil and the paint brush.

And I really created an appreciation for different types of mediums in different ways and digital. And the way that I sort of came to this conclusion was Carl Hooker, he created this iPadPalooza event, he’s a colleague and a friend of mine and he said, “You have this many keynote,” just like whatever it was, five minutes of … like you got to let them … you got to share something that’s impactful.

And I was like, “I got to do something crazy,” I got to like just blow their minds and the only way I could think about it was to really try to find the way of talking about a device and getting them to just believe that it’s a math book or a Samsung Galaxy note, whatever it is. But then it’s a pencil. And it’s a pencil at the end because our devices don’t define us, our desires and how we use the tool is what should define and really be described.

Just yesterday on Facebook, a friend of mine, “I bought an iPad pro, what are apps to help me be productive?” So I responded and he ignored me, which I responded with a little tongue, and cheek. I was like, “What are you trying to do? Like there’s so many ways to be productive, but what are you trying to do? So yes, I could tell you like the top 10 productivity apps and even those types of lists are not as effective as, I needed to be effective in this very specific thing.”

Laura Grundler: Exactly.

Rabbi Cohen: Right? And so it’s that pencil mentality of, whether it’s a pencil or an apple pencil, whatever device it is, it has to be intentional, and has that purpose driven reasoning behind that?

Laura Grundler: Absolutely.

Matt Grundler: Yep.

Rabbi Cohen: I got to bring that one back.

Laura Grundler: No, it was … I mean, I will tell you for me, like especially either I work with about 100 art teachers and I’m trying to integrate tech but it a very meaningful way. I’m definitely on the Cathy Hunt Bandwagon of two days ago. Like it has to be traditional art with this blend of how can we utilize the iPads to show process to take photos, to take pictures of works in progress, to extend that art making into a whole new piece.

But the traditional has to be there as well. And again, very intentional and purposeful. So, again your chat that we had with us in our PLN on twitter was phenomenal.

Matt Grundler: Oh my God, that blew up.

Laura Grundler: It was so great.

Matt Grundler: I know, that was crazy.

Laura Grundler: So, I think we wanted to kind of run through some of the questions you wrote and see what your thoughts were on them.

Matt Grundler: Yeah, kind of expand on them a little bit. I mean, I was so … I love the title of it because mindset versus art set, you know, breaking that down of … dispelling the myth more or less of, “Oh, well you’re an artist, so you must be creative,” or you know that there are other ways to be creative that we sometimes miss and I think that’s, you know, it is all based on mindset. And so, all right, I think we’ll just start with question two actually.

Laura Grundler: That’s fine, yeah.

Matt Grundler: Question two just said, “Do you feel that it’s more important or do you feel it’s important to first start helping students develop a creative mindset before developing creative output?

Laura Grundler: It’s kind of hard because we’re throwing your question back at you, but we’d love to know your answer.

Rabbi Cohen: So, when I was authoring this question, I wanted pushback. I wanted conversation and say, if I created a question that was pretty straightforward, it would’ve been a simple response and kind of there would have been that awkward law between the timing of questions to two and three because I would push back on my own question. I think that students should dabble and experiment and experience hand on experiences.

I think that when we talk about different activities in the lower elementary school or to just get them to overcome a lot of their … like they don’t have self doubt when they’re young, right? Because they don’t have enough experience to build up. But they struggle with like, “Well, what should I,” until you tell them just do and then they’re fine. It’s when they’re in middle school that you say, “Just do,” and they’re like, “Wait, no, no, you need to tell me what to do.”

You can do whatever you want, but at the same time we have to help them to develop this way of thinking, so that you don’t have … and I shared this in my SD keynote, this moment where someone’s going to say that your art is bad or what you created was bad and if you’re not ready mentally to develop or to digest that, then you might shut off and just disassociate yourself with any sort of creative process or experimentation, and then you’ll become an adult that says, “Well, I can’t draw a stick figure.”

I mean I’ll never forget south by southwest 2016. I had a really long flight. I get there, there was delays and stuff, and I get to my hotel room and the concierge checks me in. He’s like, “Why are you here? Stop by, Oh, what’s your obsession creativity? Oh I’m a creative,” or “What do you? Do you do anything besides work at the hotel?” “Oh yeah, I’m getting my masters in cinematography.

Laura Grundler: What?

Rabbi Cohen: Like am I getting trolled right now?

Laura Grundler: Yeah, right?

Rabbi Cohen: Like I hid it in camera show.

Laura Grundler: Where’s Ashton Kutcher? I mean, you’ve stuff hunt.

Rabbi Cohen: So it’s a mix. I think that we have to have our students develop a vernacular and it’s set of thoughtful experiences and reflective experiences on creative processing. Like the 30 circles challenge developed by Bob Mckim at Stanford. And I can’t say that enough because people are tweeting my 30 circle drawing that I created a template that I just felt look prettier, and like, “I didn’t create that.”

So I’m like, I got a really sort of the, be careful about making sure that, that’s clear because I think you know the steal like an artists’ approach is you build on but obviously you can’t steal. It’s a double edge, right? But, I think it’s really important, the thought process and I think that in certain ways, it’s more valuable, but it shouldn’t be one of those don’t like, we’re not going to start.

I had a professor in art school, he said we won’t get on the computer, until we’ve spent four weeks of the semester hand drawing was a typography course.

Matt Grundler: Oh wow.

Laura Grundler: Oh wow.

Rabbi Cohen: I was ready to like gouge my eyes out. Five years later, I now have such an appreciation and awareness around the space of typography and also just how fonts are paired and engaged with. Right? So you have to sort of a experience the bigger picture, but then like in the midst of it you’re like, nails on chalkboard, right? You have to have a balance.

Matt Grundler: Oh absolutely.

Laura Grundler: Balance. You know, I think that, that’s a word that comes up a lot for us. Also, you hit on two other words, reflective practice,  and challenge. I guess that’s three words but, how would you integrate challenges into any classroom? Not necessarily an art room, but any general classroom. How would you see challenges being integrated?

Rabbi Cohen: So it’s a work in progress. My current focus right now is how can we take the design thinking process and do two things with it. One is, create big idea, big project experiences that happen maybe once a semester. So two times a year, very design driven. I don’t think it’s really project based learning in its pure sense because it doesn’t have like some of the tenants of PBL, but at the end goal is identifying community and improving community and a community can be, you know, a small group of friends.

It can be a classroom, it can be a school, it can be let’s get out of our school and do something incredible. So, that’s like a big idea. But coverage is a big challenge in every school. I’ve never met a school that said, “Oh, coverage isn’t a problem.” So I’ve heard interesting conversations with some people, and my hunch seems to be spot on, which is disconnect, de-compartmentalize the design thinking process and show how each one of the processes stands alone and then use that design driven process as a driver for learning that happens in the classroom.

So how can we employ empathy when we are learning in literature? How can we employ prototyping when we’re learning about history? And just you know, shameless self promotion. I turned it into a course, it’s my first time canning anything that’s been stuck in my head, it’s been a month alive and I’ve been working on this since November. Months and months of just refining and creating video content. So it should be released very soon with participate as a partner, and that-

Laura Grundler: We have some Participate love as well.

Rabbi Cohen: So, I’m really … I mean the group’s incredible. They’ve been incredibly supportive, but it’s really just the focus of this course is to solve this challenge of how do we bring this into our classroom in a big idea, but also small moments of growth and experience.

Laura Grundler: How exciting.

Matt Grundler: I guess there’s not … I mean, I can’t really respond because I’m just like, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. The whole time you’re talking, I’m like, yeah next.

Laura Grundler: The last so Matt’s making this jump in the middle school this year, but the last two years at elementary, his whole focus is in design thinking and community. So it’s really … it’s like, I think that’s part of what I love about PLN is that you find these thought partners and you realize you have so many commonalities that are moving things forward. It’s really exciting. Is there a question that you felt, especially provoked by or you felt like it maybe even provoked our twitter audience that you wanted to kind of circle around back to?

Rabbi Cohen: Yeah, I’m trying to think back. It was really … it was one of the … I mean, just to sort of give you both a shout out. If it wasn’t for bedtime with my children, I would be on every single chat that happens, I’d be there and also shout out to my wife who gave me permission to abandon her during bedtime, right? Like the engagement didn’t stop, and it was just days after and then you reengaged it the week after and the conversations kept going. And that’s what I really love about that chat, is that it isn’t just one of those like … especially like all good Twitter chat hashtags are hijacked, that goes with the territory.

Laura Grundler: Yes.

Rabbi Cohen: But at the same time there’s … usually what happens is the chat ends, and then it just becomes hijacked till the next chat and you keep it sort of vibrant and the community knows that. And to look sort of looks … you know, I’m looking through the questions right now, trying to sort of remind myself of one of the ones that really, really got … I think, it’s funny, the first question, even though first questions are hard because everyone’s sort of coming in and some people are a little late, but we retweeted it, and the first question was what kinds of activities or experiences do you engage your students in that spark creativity but don’t lead to a final product being made?

And I think that’s important because we expect creativity to be this thing where we’re done, and there’s this product, there’s a project, something turn it in and it’s done. And I think that is unfortunate.

Laura Grundler: Yeah.

Matt Grundler: Yeah.

Rabbi Cohen: And it was refreshing to see people describe ways that they use video content where the video might get trashed, like it might not even be archived. Like we don’t need to archive everything. I have a 128 Giga-iPhone and this thing is build with the media. I was in New York last week on vacation with my wife. I have pictures, will I share those beyond the WhatsApp chat with my family and they just disappear into oblivion.

And it’s like we don’t always have to create these fully curated, fully created experiences. And I think to see people share these moments where like they did experiences that required creative problem solving, and employing creative process and practice, but it wasn’t something that got turned in. It was something that drove a writing assignment. It was something that … you know, I created this program a couple of years ago that I’m excited for this year to revamp it because it was a collaboration between Writer’s Workshop and Scratch Junior.

And now that Scratch 3.0, the full blown Scratch is coming to the iPad, iPad compatible, I’m ready to like build this out because it really had a cap of second, maybe third grade when we pushed it, but they used Scratch jr as a component for that visual creative part of the writer’s workshop. Right? So for those not familiar with Writer’s Workshop, you brainstorm and then draw out and then use your drawing as the drive to then write because you visualized it.

So we replaced that analog with a Scratch coded experience that they then wrote about that story and there was so much more to write about because it had animation, it had audio and they started to realize so many different avenues that they could use, so many different mediums so then go back to writing. But at the end of the day, it was writing, it was literacy and yeah, maybe we kept a couple as archive. But that wasn’t the focus. That wasn’t the end game.

That’s a little bit more elaborate. But I think it’s just like mind mapping and sketch noting and things like that where no, it doesn’t have to be a full done color rendering, we want to put it on Twitter sketch note. It can just be you understanding that this is helping you visually reflect. Visually break down information to make it memorable. Because that’s really what creativity is about. It’s about making things memorable.

Matt Grundler: Yeah.

Laura Grundler: So it’s almost hard having this conversation because it’s like everything you believe in.

Matt Grundler: So I mean, what do you … I think you were starting to mention it about reflection? You kind of had brought that up. I mean, you know, as artists it is something that’s really key. And I think you were saying when people give you bad feedback, they give you negative feedback on your piece of art or they tell you, you’re not good at it or whatever.

Laura Grundler: Or even teaching. You know, one of the things that our teachers struggle with is that they want to be beyond proficient. They want to be exceeds, and way up at the top instead of realizing there’s always room for growth. It’s okay to be proficient. So that reflective practice in both education and artistry are so essential. And you’ve mentioned it a couple times.

Matt Grundler: So kind of where do you lie in that? I mean where do you … where does it, I guess where does it fall in its importance to you?

Rabbi Cohen: I think I didn’t get the single most important way of approaching life for … and everything, and anything, and for everyone. We don’t teach this reflective practice in this sort of reflection on failure. You know, it’s like fail often. I was just watching the … for the umpteenth time, this IDEO Night line from like the late 90s.

Laura Grundler: I’ve seen it.

Rabbi Cohen: It’s like shopping for a car right?

Laura Grundler: Yes.

Rabbi Cohen: You know the news anchor is like, fail often, you know fail whatever he said, I don’t remember what the exact … At this point, you think I should have the whole thing memorized, but it has to be reflective of how can I do better, and it might not even be how do I fix right now? Sometimes you don’t have that time, especially in a K-12 space. Like, no, we actually can’t go back and fix that, but I can grade you, and assess you on how thoughtful you were along the process, but you have to design an experience that allows for that. Right.

So, if you’re failing a course, or you’re failing a test, yeah, so let’s be reflective, but I can’t give you extra points because you reflected that, you waited till the last minute, you didn’t study properly and didn’t do proper research, or didn’t cite sources and things like that. But I think that you have an opportunity as an educator. Educator listening to this and I’m also speaking to myself, that we have an opportunity to provide our students with experiences that let them reflect, have reflection be something that can compliment and also drive other skills and other pieces of … I mean writing literacy will thrive if you give students opportunities to experience things on their own terms, and then write about it.

And I remember just one of my children, my second oldest, his first grade teacher said he doesn’t like to write. He won’t write, and I’m just, that’s okay, I’m going to help figure this out and obviously we want our children to be successful just like we want our students to be successful. And then my sister lives out of the country. She visits with her husband, and they go out to a candy ice cream shop, and then all of a sudden this boy is writing. And he’s covering page one, and he’s flipping it over page two and I’m reading it and it’s first grade articulate, and coherent, and inspiring.

Because he’s sharing something that he cares deeply about. So if we could stop forcing our students for a moment to conform to the topics, then we might get more output out of them, and then we’d have opportunity to reflect and help them become stronger, more invested writers, because we’ve allowed them to have some sort of control over the process. Then you have things like design thinking itself and it’s explicitly in it is that the prototype requires you to improve because your first, second, or third try will never be the best.

And that I think is something that it’s very structured and concrete, if you allow it to be. But then it can still be very open and provide opportunity because it gives a framework of workflow but not what is the flow and how was the flow. I don’t know if I answered the question. It’s such a big idea. It’s almost like its own fully dedicated conversation, but there needs to be more of it. And first attempt in learning like that acronym always irked me, because it’s not like just do it again, and give opportunities to do it again.

So when I saw that failure, like when it was revealed to me, I was like, “Whoa, this is crazy.” Crazy learning unless reflection exists, you can’t make this up, this is real. I googled like crazy, like there’s no way I came up with this. It had to been like Sr. Ken Robinson talk or something. At this point now I’m almost three years into this acronym. Nobody has called me out, and I don’t even like mention anymore that maybe this is out there, like let me know. Like I provided opportunity, no one has come forth and it’s mine right now. It’s awesome.

Laura Grundler: It’s yours. It’s totally yours. In fact, you should tweet it out to this month’s … So Matt and I started about three years ago, just mostly for ourselves and not to see if the hashtag would go anywhere, but just to get people thinking about reflection-

Matt Grundler: Being aware of reflection.

Laura Grundler: Yeah, and purposely picking the month of August to do it because-

Matt Grundler: I mean as teachers we get … you know, or actually anything, we get ready to start the school year again and before you move forward you’ve got to be able to look back and see where those improvements can be. Because then you can take those improvements on. And so we started this thing called Reflect 31 and that’s for the whole month of August to be some kind of reflection.

Rabbi Cohen: 31 days of reflection on your educational practice and philosophy. And this year we’re doing a little different. In the past we’ve had a daily prompt or something, but this year we’re just doing it around a weekly big idea.

Matt Grundler: And this week’s idea is all around, or the first week of August is around triumph. And you know, what is your biggest triumph? And whether it’s a lesson, whether it’s in the classroom.

Laura Grundler: Success with a student, one little thing like getting a kid to write, that’s huge. That could forever change a child’s life.

Matt Grundler: Or maybe opening the eyes of an administrator who might not see the value in what we’re doing, or what they’re doing, and for them to really be able to see that is a huge deal.

Laura Grundler: Yeah. So I guess all of that to say is that we’re really big believers in the power of reflection and it has to be ongoing. It can’t be reflection on demand. It has to be a part of the practice and the process. So, it’s just really so exciting to hear you speak about it.

Rabbi Cohen: It’s just there’s no industry that can survive being stagnant.

Laura Grundler: No.

Rabbi Cohen: And that requires reflection and innovation. You look at the car industry, you look at the medical industry, I guess maybe like … no, I, I mean, I cannot think of another one. Education can do it. It’s really the only space where … because … also education’s credit, we’re the only industry where human beings are the final product and, I have to … I’m always looking at sort of like the … the idea of always looking for the good doesn’t mean ignore the bad.

It doesn’t mean to be naive … but I always try to … So when I see high stake testing, and I see really super over the top high stakes emphasis in different districts and with the different leaders, it’s because they care about students. We all care about students and the ones that don’t, like they get weeded out, they burn out, or they ride off into the sunset and they really are a minority.

But at the same time we have to shift this because there is so many more opportunities that we can give our students, and you know, Rome wasn’t built in a day. We don’t have to flip this over on its head. It can be a … yes, 20% time, but I think even that is very difficult to manage for teachers. I love the idea of an elective, or a lunchtime space where teachers can partner to offset the burden of it, but give students a dedicated space of just let’s figure things out, let’s figure out what you care about. Let’s experiment, let’s explore and let’s make it happen.

I think that’s just a nice way to also see proof of concept that could then, because every school community is different, show, well this is how this would work in our school now what? Versus like, “Oh really, you know, the tech rabbi on the keynote stage is talking about his entrepreneur course, but like we can’t do that because if A through double Z. Do it in a small dose and watch the students appreciation soar. They appreciate have appreciation. They have gratitude for those types of opportunities.

Laura Grundler: Yeah. You know, it’s funny that you say that because I just was talking to our new teachers. I have 13 new art teachers and I said to them, “You know, you have to eat an elephant in small bites, and you just take a chunk at a time and you keep moving forward. And just kind of the same thing about changing the mindset around creativity, and that’s what we were talking about, and the buy in of working collaboratively with General-Ed teachers and, making those partnerships impactful for all students. I think that, that’s so key. Do you have any parting words for the podcast?

Rabbi Cohen: Just start. Those are the words that have driven me. You don’t wait. Just get it out there and understand that we live in a world now where versions 1.0, 2.0 are real for everything and there’s no more one chances. You’ve got to give students the space to just start, the teachers the space to just start, and just watch it be awesome. And if it’s not awesome the first time, it’ll be awesome the second time, or the third time.

Matt Grundler: It will eventually be awesome.

Rabbi Cohen: Yeah. It’s about legacy. It’s not about getting it done the first time.

Matt Grundler: Yep. Wow. Yeah, we can probably listen to you talk the rest of the time. So, we certainly appreciate you taking the time to talk with us, and kind of reflect on your chat that was two weeks ago. And so we just really appreciate it, thank you so much.

Laura Grundler: And also for being our start. For helping us start this podcast. It’s really exciting. It’s something that our PLN community’s been asking for, and we’re really thrilled that you’re helping us kick it off.